Ancient Citizen
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 26 Jul 2009
- Messages
- 15,711
Well, you need a psychiatrist for that mate, chin up though.
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Keir Starmer
- Thread starter urban genie
- Start date
Rascal
El Presidente
What does Starmer do now? Lisa Nandy is calling for a boycott of west bank goods.
This is one of the problems created. If Israel annexe the West Bank as is being reported as possible, then is calling for sanctions anti-Semitic or anti-imperialist. I would say its anti=imperialist and the left has traditionally been anti-imperialist, but if it is seen as anti-Semitic then Israel can act with impunity and Starmer who is backed into a corner has to sack Nandy for supporting a long held Labour value. That further increases division in the party as it is questioning the parties commitment to being anti-imperialist.
Its a fucking mess and Starmer has made a rod for his own back by sacking RLB.
Rascal
El Presidente
I would like to hear what these centric policies of 30 to 40 years ago are now classed as far left. .
The Lib Dems promised to put 1p on income tax to raise income to spend on Education, a reasonable policy that many agreed with at the time and the Lib Dems did really well on the basis of it. The spending actually happened through the pupil premium in the coalition Government, the 1p tax rise although not raised by direct taxation came via a rise in VAT.
If Labour were to propose the same today, it would be dismissed as hard left.
That is how the Overton window works, it shifts people perceptions of what is an acceptable norm.
I think the perception has shifted in favour of renationalising the railways.The Lib Dems promised to put 1p on income tax to raise income to spend on Education, a reasonable policy that many agreed with at the time and the Lib Dems did really well on the basis of it. The spending actually happened through the pupil premium in the coalition Government, the 1p tax rise although not raised by direct taxation came via a rise in VAT.
If Labour were to propose the same today, it would be dismissed as hard left.
That is how the Overton window works, it shifts people perceptions of what is an acceptable norm.
hilts
Well-Known Member
The Lib Dems promised to put 1p on income tax to raise income to spend on Education, a reasonable policy that many agreed with at the time and the Lib Dems did really well on the basis of it. The spending actually happened through the pupil premium in the coalition Government, the 1p tax rise although not raised by direct taxation came via a rise in VAT.
If Labour were to propose the same today, it would be dismissed as hard left.
That is how the Overton window works, it shifts people perceptions of what is an acceptable norm.
I disagree I don’t think many would even flap too much about 1p on income tax. However if it takes 1p to help education then you see Labours last manifesto people are going to think what exactly? You start adding 1p for this that and the other, start borrowing and that manifesto concerns people not just because of an increase in tax but also the impact on the economy, debt and jobs.
This has nothing to do with people being more right wing they are just concerned about the consequences. labour need to get in invest some money via fair taxes and some borrowing and show people it can work. Instead they just say they will sort everything they can think of only tax the rich and expect people to swallow it. It doesn’t work and it’s not because the public are happy for the disabled to be shit on.
hilts
Well-Known Member
I think the perception has shifted in favour of renationalising the railways.
I agree and if Labour ever get in and can make it work people will be more likely to trust them on lots of other things. They have to get in and then not fuck it up. It’s not looking likely tbh.
I think the perception has shifted in favour of renationalising the railways.
Someone needs to present a clear argument on why it will be better, it will work and why it will cost the public less than train travel does now.
It’s no good just to say it for ideological reasons.
Someone needs to present a clear argument on why it will be better, it will work and why it will cost the public less than train travel does now.
It’s no good just to say it for ideological reasons.
Agreed
Same for water and other utilities
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
No it's not anti-semitic in itself. But it's hypocritical.This is one of the problems created. If Israel annexe the West Bank as is being reported as possible, then is calling for sanctions anti-Semitic or anti-imperialist. I would say its anti=imperialist and the left has traditionally been anti-imperialist, but if it is seen as anti-Semitic then Israel can act with impunity and Starmer who is backed into a corner has to sack Nandy for supporting a long held Labour value. That further increases division in the party as it is questioning the parties commitment to being anti-imperialist.
Its a fucking mess and Starmer has made a rod for his own back by sacking RLB.
- China annexed Tibet and bullies others into not recognising Taiwan, claiming it as its own.
- Russia annexed Crimea and (effectively) the Donetsk region of Ukraine.
- Jordan annexed the whole of the West Bank in 1948 yet no one said a word.
- You barely hear a squeak out of Labour/the Left on the Kurds, who want their own state and are therefore in a not dissimilar position to the Palestinians.
- A Labour government supported an invasion of Iraq, which even if it wasn't illegal (which it probably was) was totally immoral.
People in Nazi Germany had Jewish friends, colleagues, neighbours, employers and employees. But Hitler succeeded in convincing the Germans that these normal individuals they interacted with on a daily basis - some nice, decent people, some maybe not so nice - were somehow not individuals with their own characteristics but part of something they created a vision of as a sinister, malevolent movement controlled by a mysterious central hand ("World Jewry"). Well, for "World Jewry" these days, the code is "Zionist" or "Israel".
And Israel is a democracy (albeit one with plenty of faults) with all the functions you expect in a democracy, such as an independent judiciary, free press, toleration of dissent and wide political views, multicultural, offering complete freedom of religion, with regular elections under proportional representation, as well as being a highly developed, hi-tech industrial powerhouse. That's everything surely a progressive citizen should want?
Yet it's bordered by Gaza, run by Hamas which is a fascist, militaristic, undemocratic, religiously fundamental organisation, which doesn't tolerate any deviation from its narrow, illiberal view. Yet supposedly democratic and freedom loving people would seemingly prefer that. Simply no logic to that at all.
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