Keir Starmer

[The perfect fumble]

Starmer isn’t going to reopen the Brexit debate. As a nation we are incapable of talking sensibly about the EU, meaning the UK isn’t close to joining the EU or even thinking about it for a generation or two, and the EU isn’t going to accept the UK even if we were thinking about it.

What we can, and will do, is edge ever closer over time and end up with NI‘s current situation applying to the whole of the UK. Voting for Starmer will just make the inevitable quicker and less painful.

You don't say!

Say it often enough and it sounds believable.

Think on this.....

Barely ten years ago it was unthinkable we'd ever leave the EU.

But yeah, a generation, that'd be 20-30 years? And you reckon a generation or two, so that's what? Fifty years or so?

The young want back in, they're not going to wait that long.

 

[mexico1970]

As a black woman…..

Yawn, she is as thick as fucking mince, a serial offender and a natural political enemy of the leader so no surprise he is fucking her off.

It’s called politics Diane, something the left and momentum are also good at playing.

She plays the race game constantly, fucker has stolen a living ;)

 

[BobKowalski]

It’s technically impossible for NI’s set-up to apply to the rest of the UK.

If rest of the UK were to join the single market and EU customs union - as currently applies in NI - then large parts of the current NI set-up would be redundant and the structure would change as a result.

What you’re effectively advocating is the UK rejoining the single market and customs union. There’s effectively no NI option for the rest of the UK.

Yes. I kind of thought that was clear in my post.

 

[BobKowalski]

You don't say!

Say it often enough and it sounds believable.

Think on this.....

Barely ten years ago it was unthinkable we'd ever leave the EU.

But yeah, a generation, that'd be 20-30 years? And you reckon a generation or two, so that's what? Fifty years or so?

The young want back in, they're not going to wait that long.

It will be a decade before we can even start taking sensibly about the EU. And the EU will look a lot different in a decade. When we talk about rejoining we think about going back to what we had, but that EU will have long gone and I don’t see us formally joining a larger, more centralised bloc.

Our relationship will be similar to Switzerland. I could be wrong though, who knows.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the party....

 

[Brewster's millions]

Yes. I kind of thought that was clear in my post.

The differences between what NI has currently and what a plain vanilla membership of the single market and customs union for the UK as a whole would entail - while remaining outside of the EU of course - are the tricky bits though aren’t they?

Currently, and at least in theory, NI has democratic control over trade policy, product/food standards and VAT exemptions - all via goods imported from GB - and changes in single market legislation can be kicked back if sufficient opposition exists. All of this would be removed should the rest of the UK sign up for customs union / single market.

Do you really believe that the UK should be in a situation where it has no control over any of these factors, and simply follows the EU with no influence over trade, product standards and market legislation?

Personally I think that support for rejoining the EU proper would be much stronger and more widespread than the scenario you’re outlining.

 

[BrianW]

I would much sooner rejoin the EU. But then I am not afraid of the potential political consequences. Euro? Federal Europe? Bring them on!

Many people do have reservations about these things, so a more distanced (but integrated) relationship is more palatable, even though it is illogical. Logic clearly does not win elections in the UK. This is second-best as far as I am concerned, but still better (and economically sounder) than what we have. As ever in life, you cannot have it all roads.

 

[remember arthur mann]

Keir who? What a pussy, complete waste of space. We need people like Skinner and Benn.

 

[Postman Pep]

 

[hilts]

We were already in a position where weren’t all in, with the various opt outs we had. It would have been perfectly feasible to guarantee retaining sterling, opting out of a EU army and actually using the rules available to us to limit free movement, so it could easily have been sold to the more sensible eurosceptics that we’re opting out of ever closer integration whilst retaining the main parts we liked. Instead we’ve tossed it all away and thrown out the baby with the bath water.

Hopefully Starmer will get us back to a position where we can benefit from being aligned with the EU without being a member.

Yep and they could have even done all that or some of it before and the referendum wouldn't have been lost. I'm glad some are finally realising listenening to others is a good idea.

Shame it's too late.

 

[hilts]

We already were in that position in reality with all the opt outs and keeping the pound etc..

I’d take your point if the vote had been the other way round and we’d gone full EU afterwards, but that was never going to happen or be possible.

We voted on how things stood within the EU and that included opt outs and sterling. Which in itself shows you all you need to know about fairness in the EU.

My point was quite simple with the breath taking hypocrisy since eg.

Referendums are no good it's too complicated they cried the politicians must make these decisions.

After

Most would now die for a referendum. And the politicians? Well they've done well on your behalf and look how the clever politicians have fucked up literally everything they have touched.

No doubt we will be back to square one through the back door soon enough.

If it wasn't all so predictable with our political systems and politicians the EU might actually have been worth being a member of.

Anyhow it's the Starmer thread and I've had my once every few weeks plunge into all things brexit.

 

[BobKowalski]

The differences between what NI has currently and what a plain vanilla membership of the single market and customs union for the UK as a whole would entail - while remaining outside of the EU of course - are the tricky bits though aren’t they?

Currently, and at least in theory, NI has democratic control over trade policy, product/food standards and VAT exemptions - all via goods imported from GB - and changes in single market legislation can be kicked back if sufficient opposition exists. All of this would be removed should the rest of the UK sign up for customs union / single market.

Do you really believe that the UK should be in a situation where it has no control over any of these factors, and simply follows the EU with no influence over trade, product standards and market legislation?

Personally I think that support for rejoining the EU proper would be much stronger and more widespread than the scenario you’re outlining.

Economic alignment with the EU is more likely than membership as it will happen gradually and by default. We have no industrial strategy, no grand plan and no real idea of where we go from here, so the path of least resistance is the one we will take, and that path is economic alignment.

Full membership will require extensive preparation, debate, referendum etc., none of which we are capable of. We do not understand how the EU works - and by we I mean our political and media class - so, there is zero chance of any measured assessment of the pros and cons of membership. This country couldn‘t even understand what a great deal it had to begin with, choosing instead to bin it off in return for some magic beans.

Can we accept rules being imposed on us with no input in their formulation? Well, that’s what voted for with Brexit, so I guess the answer is yes. The Brexit vote was a vote to absent ourselves from the political process and still retain the economic benefits. And that is precisely what I am advocating. Will of the people and all that.

 

[west didsblue]

Yep and they could have even done all that or some of it before and the referendum wouldn't have been lost. I'm glad some are finally realising listenening to others is a good idea.

Shame it's too late.

They did most of it and the referendum was lost.
When one campaign blatantly lied and the other was insipid we ended up with the result we did. Facts didn’t really come into it.
Anyway, who cares. We are where we are and we just need to get rid of the current idiots in charge who don’t seem capable of organising a piss up in a brewery never mind a country.

 

[Postman Pep]

 

[Fat Larrys Band]

Just watched that on telly. Proves what a distrustful #unt he is...

 

[TinFoilHat]

Just watched that on telly. Proves what a distrustful #unt he is...

Alexi Sayle made a comedy routine out of claiming he's a secret M15 officer used to destroy the party.

He's stopped doing it now because he's starting to think his satire maybe true.

 

[domalino]

Who are you voting for at the next GE?

 

[Postman Pep]

Who are you voting for at the next GE?

Green. You?

 

[domalino]

Green. You?

Labour, if I wanted to throw away my vote to help the tories I'd just stay home.

 

[Postman Pep]

Labour, if I wanted to throw away my vote to help the tories I'd just stay home.

Yeah it's almost as if every vote carries equal weight.

If Labour lose a 14,000 majority where I am I reckon they'd have a lot more questions to answer than me.