Liverpool Thread - 2022/23

[threespires]

I think you are wrong in this analysis, as the pit towns of the north and midlands were treated palpably worse by Thatcher and were more egregiously affected by her policies, and the residual evidence supports this.

I think the principal reason for this is Liverpool’s size, history and the fact it retained its docks, albeit in reduced scope, all of which enabled it to reinvent itself far more purposefully than pit towns such as Barnsley and Mansfield. This distinction is even more pronounced in the pit villages that surround those towns (and others) where the coal mine was the raison d’etre for the settlement in the first place. These are places where current levels of drug addiction and unemployment are far higher than in Liverpool.

Relative to such locations, Liverpool has actually benefitted long term from Thatcherism, the former of which have totally lost their way and are discernibly poorer than they were 40 years ago. That certainly could not be said about Liverpool. One only has to compare the cost of housing and the retail offering in Barnsley and Liverpool (and compare it with the picture prior to the miner’s strike in 1984) to completely appreciate that.

I happened to visit Barnsley earlier this year (and frequently visit Liverpool) and whilst the town centre was tidy, and many of the buildings well-maintained, the levels of social deprivation and chronic disability and illness among those that I saw in the town centre was striking and certainly far more pronounced than I’ve ever encountered in Liverpool. This isn’t just down to Thatcherite ’design’, it is also as a result of circumstance (both local and more widely) but to suggest that Liverpool has a particular, distinct (never mind greater) grievance with Thatcher and her policies than other places in the north, as is clearly implied when justifying booing the national anthem for that reason, is both wrong and intellectually dishonest.

Your point is very well made. I have lived in the Midlands for many years and not too far from some of the old mining areas. Many of these are simply shells now and as you say the social deprivation is enormous. Even worse, the level of social cohesion is actually lower than in comparably deprived areas because they had their core identity taken away along with their jobs. Their communities were literally destroyed, they were left to rot and decades later have never recovered.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Your point is very well made. I have lived in the Midlands for many years and not too far from some of the old mining areas. Many of these are simply shells now and as you say the social deprivation is enormous. Even worse, the level of social cohesion is actually lower than in comparably deprived areas because they had their core identity taken away along with their jobs. Their communities were literally destroyed, they were left to rot and decades later have never recovered.

I guess you could be referring to Shirebrook, Warsop and Bilsthorpe, all of which I know well.

The main vehicle for social cohesion was the miner’s welfare club and (to a lesser extent) the local pub(s) all of which will have almost certainly gone. The core identity point is key, and whilst that can’t be solely laid at Thatcher’s door, as many of those pits would be exhausted by now in any event, it doesn’t alter the mechanics or the facts.

 

[KentBlue]

Closed down the mines all around me: Aylesham, Snowdown, Betteshanger. This part of the south coast was absolutely destroyed by Thatcher's policies. I used to gig three nights a week in the miner's clubs and made a decent living for my then-wife and my kids.

She ripped the heart out of the community and things will never be as they were. So it's not just the dippers that have good cause to hate Thatcher and her multi-millionaire chums for the way they fucked up the 1980's.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Closed down the mines all around me: Aylesham, Snowdown, Betteshanger. This part of the south coast was absolutely destroyed by Thatcher's policies. I used to gig three nights a week in the miner's clubs and made a decent living for my then-wife and my kids.

She ripped the heart out of the community and things will never be as they were. So it's not just the dippers that have good cause to hate Thatcher and her multi-millionaire chums for the way they fucked up the 1980's.

I read that Kent miners were even more militant than Yorkshire ones!

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

So to support them booing our National Anthem its was the PL fault for suggesting it should be played. If I am understanding this correctly.

So pleased it wasnt the dippers fault for booing

"It was the guy I robbed's fault for wearing an expensive watch".

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I think you are wrong in this analysis, as the pit towns of the north and midlands were treated palpably worse by Thatcher and were more egregiously affected by her policies, and the residual evidence supports this.

I think the principal reason for this is Liverpool’s size, history and the fact it retained its docks, albeit in reduced scope, all of which enabled it to reinvent itself far more purposefully than pit towns such as Barnsley and Mansfield. This distinction is even more pronounced in the pit villages that surround those towns (and others) where the coal mine was the raison d’etre for the settlement in the first place. These are places where current levels of drug addiction and unemployment are far higher than in Liverpool.

Relative to such locations, Liverpool has actually benefitted long term from Thatcherism, the former of which have totally lost their way and are discernibly poorer than they were 40 years ago. That certainly could not be said about Liverpool. One only has to compare the cost of housing and the retail offering in Barnsley and Liverpool (and compare it with the picture prior to the miner’s strike in 1984) to completely appreciate that.

I happened to visit Barnsley earlier this year (and frequently visit Liverpool) and whilst the town centre was tidy, and many of the buildings well-maintained, the levels of social deprivation and chronic disability and illness among those that I saw in the town centre was striking and certainly far more pronounced than I’ve ever encountered in Liverpool. This isn’t just down to Thatcherite ’design’, it is also as a result of circumstance (both local and more widely) but to suggest that Liverpool has a particular, distinct (never mind greater) grievance with Thatcher and her policies than other places in the north, as is clearly implied when justifying booing the national anthem for that reason, is both wrong and intellectually dishonest.

Are you suggesting they see themselves as 'the victims'' here and it's not their fault?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Are you suggesting they see themselves as 'the victims'' here and it's not their fault?

That’s an interesting and novel perspective...

 

[aguero93:20]

Nunez has been described as a “young foal” by some hack in the media, perhaps he should be at Aintree not Anfield!

Think he's a bit old to still be called a foal at this stage, he's a full grown donkey now.

 

[John Wayne]

Closed down the mines all around me: Aylesham, Snowdown, Betteshanger. This part of the south coast was absolutely destroyed by Thatcher's policies. I used to gig three nights a week in the miner's clubs and made a decent living for my then-wife and my kids.

She ripped the heart out of the community and things will never be as they were. So it's not just the dippers that have good cause to hate Thatcher and her multi-millionaire chums for the way they fucked up the 1980's.

Harold Wilson closed more mines than Margaret Thatcher. It was the policy of governments on both sides of the aisle for a long time. Now the modern Left hates coal and would rather see people paying £300-a-month for gas and electric generated through alternative means.

None of this makes any sense in the context of booing the national anthem though. For years, neither Liverpool nor Everton fans did it when they got to Wembley. It came back in vogue when Liverpool got to the Community Shield in 2019. It is attention-seeking, pure and simple.

 

[Bluewonder]

Here we go, complaining again.

When will the Spirit of Shankly ever give up?

Abdication of leadership by Premier League and Liverpool FC​

The club were left in a near-impossible situation. There was no mandate from the Premier League, just a “strong ‘suggestion” to play the anthem, and they must bear responsibility too. They are part of a working group to tackle tragedy chanting and have now potentially destroyed the good work done to this point by capitulating to pressure from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport with their “suggestion”.

Abdication of leadership by Premier League and Liverpool FC – Spirit of Shankly

spiritofshankly.com

Always the victims....

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

Your point is very well made. I have lived in the Midlands for many years and not too far from some of the old mining areas. Many of these are simply shells now and as you say the social deprivation is enormous. Even worse, the level of social cohesion is actually lower than in comparably deprived areas because they had their core identity taken away along with their jobs. Their communities were literally destroyed, they were left to rot and decades later have never recovered.

Spot-on. Large swathes of the Uk, not just the North, are totally broken. The poverty in some parts of Lancashire is as bad as anything I saw during visits to Eastern Europe before the Iron Curtain came down. The problem is that so many in this country are in total denial about the real state of things here.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Always the victims....

..... it's never your fault?

Not yours obviously. Just completing your thought. :)

 

[give it to gordon]

Only the one at the back is.

?? You mean the one right at the back ? That is correct. The 3 together are upside down ;)

 

[Manc Born & Bred]

Here we go, complaining again.

When will the Spirit of Shankly ever give up?

Abdication of leadership by Premier League and Liverpool FC​

The club were left in a near-impossible situation. There was no mandate from the Premier League, just a “strong ‘suggestion” to play the anthem, and they must bear responsibility too. They are part of a working group to tackle tragedy chanting and have now potentially destroyed the good work done to this point by capitulating to pressure from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport with their “suggestion”.

Abdication of leadership by Premier League and Liverpool FC – Spirit of Shankly

spiritofshankly.com

I don't think they do irony do they.

 

[TravisBickle]

"Tragedy Chanting", says The Spirit of Shankly.
Do they mean like this?

Comes as no surprise that the comments on YouTube are turned off.

 

[Gone for a Burton]

I guess you could be referring to Shirebrook, Warsop and Bilsthorpe, all of which I know well.

The main vehicle for social cohesion was the miner’s welfare club and (to a lesser extent) the local pub(s) all of which will have almost certainly gone. The core identity point is key, and whilst that can’t be solely laid at Thatcher’s door, as many of those pits would be exhausted by now in any event, it doesn’t alter the mechanics or the facts.

The Labour Party were closing mines,steelworks and docks a long before Thatcher was PM.

The state owned industries were loss making,inefficient basket cases which were being subsidised by tax payers and the same people who were employed there.

Mills in Manchester & Lancashire were also run down and eventually closed because the became unviable.

The militant 'strike at a cost' mentality of the unions simply brought forward their inevitable demise.

The likes of Scargill, who lived of the back of union subscriptions with a gratis apartment in the Barbican, mis led not led the members because of an out dated, violent ideology !!

Those communities that have accepted change and new employment opportunities have recovered....those who sit scowling in self pitying anger longing for a return to the last century, are destined to live in misery.

People who CAN ....DO !!

People who CAN but choose not to ....WON'T !!

 

[cheekybids]

"Tragedy Chanting", says The Spirit of Shankly.
Do they mean like this?

Now now SOS we’re victims in this, had no idea who the singer was, he just got on stage with his guitar & belted out Munich.

 

[threespires]

Harold Wilson closed more mines than Margaret Thatcher. It was the policy of governments on both sides of the aisle for a long time. Now the modern Left hates coal and would rather see people paying £300-a-month for gas and electric generated through alternative means.

None of this makes any sense in the context of booing the national anthem though. For years, neither Liverpool nor Everton fans did it when they got to Wembley. It came back in vogue when Liverpool got to the Community Shield in 2019. It is attention-seeking, pure and simple.

The Wilson mines data point is a bit selective. Those two labour governments did indeed close more physical mines. However, the impact in terms of job losses of those closures did not come anywhere close to those of the Thatcher government. Also an important context was that the employment outlook when those closures took place were quite different and more favourable compared to the latter closures so the economic shocks were not of the same scale.

The mining industry and miners well understood that mines could/would become exhausted and/or uneconomical. The issue was how and why it was done under the Thatcher government. The scale of the economic shock and the absolute lack of interest in supporting those communities was off the scale. This was an entirely deliberate strategy as it was more to do with killing the 'enemy within' as the miners and unions were viewed/called by the then PM. It had little to do with energy policy. It was imo brutal and inhuman and has blighted some areas ever since.

However back on topic, I agree wholeheartedly with your second paragraph!

 

[threespires]

The Labour Party were closing mines,steelworks and docks a long before Thatcher was PM.

The state owned industries were loss making,inefficient basket cases which were being subsidised by tax payers and the same people who were employed there.

Mills in Manchester & Lancashire were also run down and eventually closed because the became unviable.

The militant 'strike at a cost' mentality of the unions simply brought forward their inevitable demise.

The likes of Scargill, who lived of the back of union subscriptions with a gratis apartment in the Barbican, mis led not led the members because of an out dated, violent ideology !!

Those communities that have accepted change and new employment opportunities have recovered....those who sit scowling in self pitying anger longing for a return to the last century, are destined to live in misery.

People who CAN ....DO !!

People who CAN but choose not to ....WON'T !!

As someone who has always worked in the private sector but including public sector clients, has been made redundant myself, been self-employed and started his own companies with a variety of ups and downs I couldn't disagree with your analysis more :-) but that's probably for another thread!

 

[WARBABY]

I read that Kent miners were even more militant than Yorkshire ones!

They were, went underground just before Betteshanger closed they were not very happy but still a good setof lads like all miners