Middle East Conflict

Johnny Mars Bar said:
Several Jewish schools in the UK are closing out of security concerns.

That’s right - kiddies in England are terrified for their safety because of these peace loving left wing hippy protesters who just want “freedom for Palestine” and are in no way hate fuelled violent anti-semites.

When some racist thugs desecrate a mosque the nation is outraged and there’s a pouring of sympathy - and rightly so.

Ordinary Jews in this country, let alone aboard has been living with increasing anxiety and fear for years now due to the rise in far left antisemitism and hardly anyone gives a fuck.

I suggest people read David Baddiel’s Jews Don’t Count and listen to the last couple of episodes of the News Agents podcast with Jon Sopel and Emily Maitlis for a bit of an eye opener on how ordinary Jewish (or as Baddiel says, Jew…ish) people feel.
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There are many ordinary British people of the Jewish faith on here, I would rather listen to them than some commentator or other, or some statistics. Serious question as I am probably out of touch not living in England for 45 years. How do you feel in Britain?

As for the schools, I doubt they are closing because of the threat from the "far left", more probably an understandable security measure because of what is coming in Gaza and a sizable Muslim population who aren't going to like it, some of whom may get violent. I would imagine the police are watching known trouble-makers very closely at the moment.

Like I say, I may be out of touch. Genuinely interested.
 
halfcenturyup said:
There are many ordinary British people of the Jewish faith on here, I would rather listen to them than some commentator or other, or some statistics. Serious question as I am probably out of touch not living in England for 45 years. How do you feel in Britain?

As for the schools, I doubt they are closing because of the threat from the "far left", more probably an understandable security measure because of what is coming in Gaza and a sizable Muslim population who aren't going to like it, some of whom may get violent. I would imagine the police are watching known trouble-makers very closely at the moment.

Like I say, I may be out of touch. Genuinely interested.
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For the record I’m not Jewish btw.

But having listened to people who are (and I mean normal ordinary people of Jewish descent but who aren’t particularly religious) there’s a clear sense of anxiety and unease.
 
One thing is certain, when you watch what human beings can do to each other, I’m 100% sure there is no God because if there was, no way would he let us do any of this barbaric shit to each other.
 
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Johnny Mars Bar said:
For the record I’m not Jewish btw.

But having listened to people who are (and I mean normal ordinary people of Jewish descent but who aren’t particularly religious) there’s a clear sense of anxiety and unease.
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Just imagine what it’s like for Palestinian civilians knowing your home could be blown up any minute.

It’s a sad situation when schools are having to close for fear of racism or worse. These fears are genuine but there’s also a risk of scaremongering given the tolerant societies most of us live in.

I’m not Jewish but if the nearest Jewish schoool had fears of anti-Semitic grief, I would happily volunteer to help security.
 
Ducado said:
Its an absolute disgrace, but it’s a symptom of this polarisation we have seen the world over, in fact you don’t have look far it’s very evident on this forum

People getting into one camp or another and refusing to even consider the other camps perspective or in extreme forms the other camps right to exist

It’s almost like there has been a vacuum left by the decline of traditional tribal politics and religion and people are desperate to belong and blame the other for there problems, perhaps it was ever thus
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Myopic political fanboys. Enacting their political stance in the same manner they do supporting their football teams. Only ever looking for things that prove their side of the argument is right and the other is wrong, their side of the good boys and the other are the enemy.

Most people have no dog in this fight and have absolutely no idea about the long history of the region (I’m confident that many people who claim to have an interest in this conflict across society genuinely think there must have been a thousand year-long country called Palestine before 1948 the way they talk about it) yet have tubthumped on social media for years putting their Palestine or Israel flags in their bio on social media or taking the same flags to football stadiums, while really giving the situation nothing more than a passing thought every couple of weeks because they aren’t actually involved in it and don’t really care, it’s just trendy to be seen to be caring in this one.

If it was the Armenia:Azerbaijan conflict or the Cameroon Civil War that was more trendy, there’d be those flags on the social media bios and Palestine:Israel wouldn’t be seen anywhere near as much.

I’m not saying that’s the case in this thread because people do seem knowledgable and there are some who are actually are on one side of this conflict, some who know people who live there, someone on this forum has given time and money to send aid, some who have lived there, one who has joined the Israeli army this week.

But there are a few who are only posting from the prospective of one side or the other when they have no direct link to one side or the other and while over the decades both sides are as guilty and as innocent as the other.
 
Ducado said:
Back to the subject at hand this is from Arab news buts it’s actually an Associated Press article that’s been syndicated

https://www.arabnews.com/node/2390481/middle-east
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It adds weight to the feeling they allowed it to happen. If you hear accounts from survivors they were almost all in disbelief at how long it took for the police and army to come to their aid. Also as it was 50 years to the day of another big incident surely they would have been an even more heightened state of alert. Odd one this.
 
Ithryn Luin said:
Absolute fucking bullshit! There are plenty of confirmed reports from multiple sources and awful videos posted by Hammas themselves. Propaganda my arse!
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Very strange reply, in the first part of my post I said there was plenty of confirmed reports but its some of the unconfirmed reports that are being pushed the most. Are you really saying there is absolutely no Propaganada from either side
 
paulchapo said:
It adds weight to the feeling they allowed it to happen. If you hear accounts from survivors they were almost all in disbelief at how long it took for the police and army to come to their aid. Also as it was 50 years to the day of another big incident surely they would have been an even more heightened state of alert. Odd one this.
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I always take the Occoms Razer approach to things which is that the simplest explanation is almost always the answer. Israel fucked up, were caught napping and Hamas executed an attack 'perfectly'.

Israelis and Jews are some of the most protective of their own peoples in the world, I just find it incredibly hard to believe that there was some sort of grand conspiracy to open the flood gates for Hamas over the weekend.
 
Ithryn Luin said:
I'll just leave this here for you. Human Rights Watch have been criticised for decades for their anti Israel agenda.

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Bazzmand Show said:
The slaughter of people at the festival and hostage capturing, isn't 'unconfirmed'....
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No it isn't unconfirmed of course it isn't - that would be confirmed reports i mentioned just in case you struggled with that
 
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friday...friday prayer for muslums. i ve heard that in netherlands they are expecting some events. some emergency cautions taken for offices. there is a fatwa romour.
let's see what will happen in turkey also.
Financial Times reported that, srael told the UN early today that about 1.1mn people in the northern Gaza Strip should relocate to the enclave’s south within 24 hours,
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
Myopic political fanboys. Enacting their political stance in the same manner they do supporting their football teams. Only ever looking for things that prove their side of the argument is right and the other is wrong, their side of the good boys and the other are the enemy.

Most people have no dog in this fight and have absolutely no idea about the long history of the region (I’m confident that many people who claim to have an interest in this conflict across society genuinely think there must have been a thousand year-long country called Palestine before 1948 the way they talk about it) yet have tubthumped on social media for years putting their Palestine or Israel flags in their bio on social media or taking the same flags to football stadiums, while really giving the situation nothing more than a passing thought every couple of weeks because they aren’t actually involved in it and don’t really care, it’s just trendy to be seen to be caring in this one.

If it was the Armenia:Azerbaijan conflict or the Cameroon Civil War that was more trendy, there’d be those flags on the social media bios and Palestine:Israel wouldn’t be seen anywhere near as much.

I’m not saying that’s the case in this thread because people do seem knowledgable and there are some who are actually are on one side of this conflict, some who know people who live there, someone on this forum has given time and money to send aid, some who have lived there, one who has joined the Israeli army this week.

But there are a few who are only posting from the prospective of one side or the other when they have no direct link to one side or the other and while over the decades both sides are as guilty and as innocent as the other.
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Maybe true for some but it’s also true that this conflict has been an open sore (globally) that’s contributed to hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths in countless conflicts. It’s not just the blood that’s been shed in Israel / Palestine, but across the Middle East and beyond.

I think a lot of people would be under the impression that Arabs and Jews co-existed in the area for hundreds or thousands of years before the last 80 or so years.

It is the biggest global news story and if people have an interest then fair enough. As football fans, we are also affected in a small way. Going to see City away at Celtic in the Champions League in a ground where many of the fans are empathetic of Palestinians. I can also recall those Football Lads Alliance marches where the organisers made it known that banners and flags weren’t really welcome but there would be Israeli flags in the crowds. All a bit strange to me but it is what it is.
 
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To me, the question as to how it was ever allowed to happen is irrelevant. So is the 2500 year old history behind this sorry mess. Israel is bound to act and whatever they do involves massive collateral damage, but, they cannot be expected to sit on their hands; that is the reality.

The situation is stark, and if action is to be taken by Israel and it's clear aim is to prevent a recurrence, I don't see how they can realistically be criticised. This is the same fight as was fought a few years back against Isis which the vast majority of the world was in favour of. Hamas enacted their act of war last Saturday. Faced with a stated intention to destroy Israel and kill all Jews, their turn has come to reap what they sowed.

God/Allah knows where we'll finish up, but, Israel won't be stopped unless hostages start to be released today. They may have been asleep at the wheel, but, they aren't now, after Saturday's rude awakening.

We can all wring our hands as much as we want but the cycle of violence is unlikely to end any time soon.
 
Bazzmand Show said:
I always take the Occoms Razer approach to things which is that the simplest explanation is almost always the answer. Israel fucked up, were caught napping and Hamas executed an attack 'perfectly'.

Israelis and Jews are some of the most protective of their own peoples in the world, I just find it incredibly hard to believe that there was some sort of grand conspiracy to open the flood gates for Hamas over the weekend.
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Exactly, the most protective and ruthless too. Also with the most heightened sense of security. Ex army and intelligence people in Israel have expressed incredulity that it happened given a cat approaching that fence would have triggered alarms everywhere.
 
dublinblue12 said:
No it isn't unconfirmed of course it isn't - that would be confirmed reports i mentioned just in case you struggled with that
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I know, but there is a group of people at the moment on social media who seem to have taken it on themselves to 'debunk' reports from the weekend. Like women being sexually assaulted, of course we don't have footage of Hamas committing these acts - but like is it really so hard to imagine that they have done that? If they were willing to walk into a festival and open fire on civilians and murder hundreds of them, walk through a neighbourhood and into family homes and shooting them at point blank, is it really so hard to imagine that they possibly sexually assaulted some women as well?
 
paulchapo said:
It adds weight to the feeling they allowed it to happen. If you hear accounts from survivors they were almost all in disbelief at how long it took for the police and army to come to their aid. Also as it was 50 years to the day of another big incident surely they would have been an even more heightened state of alert. Odd one this.
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I don’t think they allowed it to happen.

The wall was Netanyahu’s expensive project, it succeeded in giving the illusion of being strong and impregnable against an ad hoc rag tag mob of militants, but was going to be ineffective against an organised and intelligent enemy.
That’s where the Israeli intelligence and government have failed - their belief that Hamas was just a rag tag terrorist group incapable of sophisticated planning.

The article, in some nuanced ways, shows the lack of respect or just sheer incomprehension of threats - the bit about snipers simply targeting the ammunition storage of remote controlled automatic guns on the fence line to disable them stood out.
To have such a sophisticated weapon with such a vulnerable part, that is then exploited with just a sniper rifle…

Iirc 1973 war was very similar , Israel was caught off guard with complete surprise and was still lying on its laurels after the comprehensive victories of the 1967 war. It completely under estimated the ability of its wounded neighbours to re-arm, upgrade military doctrine and re-coordinate their actions.

The superiority of Israeli forces, tactics and training only came to bear after the initial losses.

So, I think Israel underestimated Hamas ability to strike , believing a sophisticated wall would stop human incursions, as the Iron Dome was generally stopping rocket attacks.

Warfare is always about exploiting the weaknesses of others, complacency and feeling superior being quite high up on those weaknesses , especially in a David and Goliath or Troy situation.
 
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