Middle East Conflict

Vic said:
Have fun finding anything in the Qur'an that gives Muslims a promise to the land. The Palestinians (Muslim and Christian) just happened to have been there a long time when Zionists started moving there. It was indeed Britain that made promises to both groups.
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Have fun reading the Old Testament, the founding book for the three monotheistic religions.
 
I just got to pondering the word “Terrorist” few thoughts

By the definition of the word Hamas are “Terrorist” but I did think the word was generally reserved for non state actors who wage war on both civilian and military targets, like it or not they are the governing power in Gaza, can a governing power be classed as terrorist? It’s of of no matter, however what to we call a governing power that sets out to indiscriminately kill its own citizens and citizens from another side of a conflict, Syria, Myanmar, Russia for example are theses terrorist states?

For the host population theses groups are not classed as terrorists rather freedom fighters, take the IRA and all its previous incarnations, for the poor and oppressed Irish they were their salvation from the oppressive and unfair governance of Ireland

Forgetting that debate, how would people suggest the Palestinians go about getting their own state and freedom from the daily oppression they suffer? Non violence like Ghandi? Just suffer in silence with the hope that the world notices their plight? Or form violent resistance against Israel ? It’s an interesting point to ponder and I am genuinely interested in what people think
 
Did you know that we sell more weaponry to the Middle East than any other region of the world? It is no wonder that we voted against a ceasefire!
What a mess this is - terrorism, murder, retaliation, retribution, revenge, tears, grief, and fear - year after year, decade after decade. I only hope that the current demonstrations against aggression, by Jews and Palestinians alike, is the start of a sustained turn of opinion against governments who seemingly want this to continue.
 
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The Salford lad. said:
Hamas have got what the wanted after the early morning attack on Israel, I really am beginning to think they don’t actually give a fuck about the civilians in Gaza,
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They clearly couldn’t care less about the people they claim to represent. They’re firing rockets next to a hospital full of injured and sick people.
 
oldius said:
Did you know that we sell more weaponry to the Middle East than any other region of the world? It is no wonder that we voted against a ceasefire!
What a mess this is - terrorism, murder, retaliation, retribution, revenge, tears, grief, and fear - year after year, decade after decade. I only hope that the current demonstrations against aggression, by Jews and Palestinians alike, is the start if a sustained turn of opinion against governments who seemingly want this to continue.
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The arms business and those who invest in it have a hell of a lot of blood on their hands.
 
Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
They clearly couldn’t care less about the people they claim to represent. They’re firing rockets next to a hospital full of injured and sick people.
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You do realize that what is going on in Gaza now will create hatred on a huge scale against Israel and will result in the deaths of thousands Jews. Does Netanyahu care?
 
Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
They clearly couldn’t care less about the people they claim to represent. They’re firing rockets next to a hospital full of injured and sick people.
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How do you think they should respond? I’m just interested in people stating one opinion but not giving an answer

How should Israel respond to the Black Saturday attacks?
 
robbieh said:
You do realize that what is going on in Gaza now will create hatred on a huge scale against Israel and will result in the deaths of thousands Jews. Does Netanyahu care?
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No I didnt realise that. I live under a rock

I was replying to a specific point about Hamas - I wasn’t trying to compare.
 
Ducado said:
How do you think they should respond? I’m just interested in people stating one opinion but not giving an answer

How should Israel respond to the Black Saturday attacks?
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How Hamas should respond? Probably by not firing rockets in heavily populated areas. In terms of a wider point I’m not sure what the best response is, that doesn’t result in mass casualties on both sides. It’s a complex issue that most people don’t have the answer to.

It is a war so I expect attacks from both sides.
 
Ducado said:
How do you think they should respond? I’m just interested in people stating one opinion but not giving an answer

How should Israel respond to the Black Saturday attacks?
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In my view, not at all, at least not with weaponry.
Once you take revenge against a population for a terrorist attack, you feed further attack and anger and condemnation. Naturally, this fuels further retaliation and the worm keeps turning. It is asking a lot of Israel, but they are a nation state and the death toll after years of violence is overwhelmingly in their favour, and against the people of Palestine.

The only long-term solution is diplomacy.

I saw an interesting question being asked the other day - how can an occupier be only acting in self-defence?
 
Ducado said:
How do you think they should respond? I’m just interested in people stating one opinion but not giving an answer

How should Israel respond to the Black Saturday attacks?
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Hamas have to be removed. Either the Palestinian people remove Hamas themselves (ideal solution), elect a civilised government with their own peoples interest at heart and then negotiate an acceptable peace deal with Israel OR the UN take control of the Gaza strip and bring civilised a government etc OR Israel destroy Hamas themselves (not easy). Leaving Hamas in place is not an option or solution. Israel have a democratic mechanism to get rid of any leader they wish, Palestine appears to be controlled by those who have the biggest gun.
 
Palerider said:
Hamas have to be removed. Either the Palestinian people remove Hamas themselves (ideal solution), elect a civilised government with their own peoples interest at heart and then negotiate an acceptable peace deal with Israel OR the UN take control of the Gaza strip and bring civilised a government etc OR Israel destroy Hamas themselves (not easy). Leaving Hamas in place is not an option or solution. Israel have a democratic mechanism to get rid of any leader they wish, Palestine appears to be controlled by those who have the biggest gun.
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But in the process of removing them you just create Hamas 2, unless the core issues are dealt with, people will resist oppression it’s a fact of life
 
Ducado said:
But in the process of removing them you just create Hamas 2, unless the core issues are dealt with, people will resist oppression it’s a fact of life
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Hamas :The group's charter calls for establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel and rejects all agreements made between the PLO and Israel.

You cannot negotiate with people like that, they are not reasonable. The only solution is to remove them and try again with a decent Palestinian government.
 
The removal of Hamas is a little bit of a red-herring, IMO. You may remove every member of Hamas from within the walls of Gaza, but it is impossible to drain the fuel that feeds them unless you stop occupation of the West Bank. Even then, you have a job on your hands. Once you do that, and you stop any retaliation, the excuses are gone. Of course, the involvement of the West, and Iran, Egypt and Jordan all place additional caveats upon the simplicity of my view.

I am no Middle East expert, but I remember speaking to a Jewish friend of mine when we were both 18. He told me that he hated Arabs. I was ignorant of the situation at the time, completely so, and I don't remember his explanation, but I remember the venom in his voice and how out-of-character it seemed. That was nearly forty years ago. I have no doubt that this is will be the same for many people in the Arab world, unfortunately. There is a difference between this type of emotion and acting upon it with violence, but the fuel is there, and so continued violence just brings the next wave of terrorist, and the next wave of war and reprisal.
 
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Palerider said:
Hamas :The group's charter calls for establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel and rejects all agreements made between the PLO and Israel.

You cannot negotiate with people like that, they are not reasonable. The only solution is to remove them and try again with a decent Palestinian government.
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For a balanced discussion, do you think the current extremist Israel government should also be removed along with Hamas ? As their acts are much worse ? And how do you bring a more moderate government in Israel to negotiate with a supposed more moderate Palestine government?
 
Ducado said:
How do you think they should respond? I’m just interested in people stating one opinion but not giving an answer

How should Israel respond to the Black Saturday attacks?
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Well Israel can continue doing what they're doing, a cycle of death and destruction for both sides that has been going on for decades... Doesnt work.

Or they can make some concessions, start negotiating seriously, and aim for a longer peace. That is NEVER going to come from the other side, its all on Israel unfortunately. And whilst all that is going on keep negotiating. Because the current answer hasnt been working for what 50 years?
 
Netanyahu has always wanted a greater Israel which by definition means Palestine ceases to exist. What is happening now is part of this. He hopes that Palestinians will be absorbed by neighbouring Arabs states.
The 2 state solution is dead in my opinion. Hamas don't want it either.

The problem is Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon do not want millions of poverty stricken radicalised people living in their countries.

So we have a stalemate.
 
oldius said:
The removal of Hamas is a little bit of a red-herring, IMO. You may remove every member of Hamas from within the walls of Gaza, but it is impossible to drain the fuel that feeds them unless you stop occupation of the West Bank. Even then, you have a job on your hands. Once you do that, and you stop any retaliation, the excuses are gone. Of course, the involvement of the West, and Iran, Egypt and Jordan all place additional caveats upon the simplicity of my view.

I am no Middle East expert, but I remember speaking to a Jewish friend of mine when we were both 18. He told me that he hated Arabs. I was ignorant of the situation at the time, completely so, and I don't remember his explanation, but I remember the venom in his voice and how out-of-character it seemed. That is nearly forty years ago. I have no doubt that this is will be the same for many people in the Arab world. There is a difference between this type of emotion and acting upon it with violence, but the fuel is there.
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It's a good post and you may well be right. I think most of us just want an end to this never ending cycle of violence. I cannot see how you can do that without reasonable people making reasonable compromises.
 
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