You've lost the plot. Can you cite anyone for that nonsense?
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Middle East Conflict
- Thread starter The blue phantom
- Start date
And Obama doing a deal so Iran didn't develop nuclear weapons....
The only reason why Iran has not gone further to achieve its goals is because the west has seriously hampered its ability to do so. Iran almost certainly would have acquired nuclear weapons several years ago had it not been for western sanctions and the probable military actions of Mossad.
Unless Israel can kill/conquer all their bad neighbors then their current coarse of action will never bring security and probably for the Middle East as a whole.
I’ve said this months ago, but the problem with this conflict in general, and why it’s unsolvable is that it became far too comfortable for 1 side and gone past intolerable for the other.
Since Iron Dome came in, on average 1-2 people in Israel die a year from this conflict vs 500+ for Palestine. Israel has a booming economy and global position while Palestinians starve and the state goes unrecognised.
So we have a conflict where 1 side faces devastating losses constantly and is kept in a perpetual state of crisis by restrictions imposed by Israel, while the other is able to prosper and grow and expand its territories into the other unchecked.
In that situation we’re never going to get people sitting around the table because Israel has no motivation to concede anything. The best case scenario for Israel is not a 2 state solution, it’s keeping the status quo up for another 25 years at which point Gaza will be dead and the West Bank will be an Israeli settlement.
And then on the other side we have a people that have been oppressed for so long that they have nothing left to concede or save in a peace deal. When a losing side sues for peace it’s because they’re trying to preserve their way of life after the war, but there is no way of life for Gazans, nothing to save, and therefore no reason to seek peace.
And Obama doing a deal so Iran didn't develop nuclear weapons.
Aka the deal that Israel threatened to bomb Iran over if the USA resurrected it post-Trump.
Because nothing says “we want peace” like threatening to bomb a country for signing a treaty with your biggest Ally.
Think you'll find the majority of pogroms took place under the Tsarist regime rather than during the soviet era.There are 15.7 million Jews in the world, 0.2% of the 8 billion world population. In the last century they have been massacred and murdered by the far left in Russia, massacred and murdered by the far right in Europe, massacred and murdered by extreme Islamists in the middle East. If what is being said by Jews then they are not safe in London! I think, not surprisingly, that the Jews decided that if no one in the world wants them then perhaps they need to find some land and look after themselves. Now it seems that many want to hound them out of Israel! Where the fuck can they live without the far left, the far right or the maddest part of Islam objecting?
I’ve said this months ago, but the problem with this conflict in general, and why it’s unsolvable is that it became far too comfortable for 1 side and gone past intolerable for the other.
Since Iron Dome came in, on average 1-2 people in Israel die a year from this conflict vs 500+ for Palestine. Israel has a booming economy and global position while Palestinians starve and the state goes unrecognised.
So we have a conflict where 1 side faces devastating losses constantly and is kept in a perpetual state of crisis by restrictions imposed by Israel, while the other is able to prosper and grow and expand its territories into the other unchecked.
In that situation we’re never going to get people sitting around the table because Israel has no motivation to concede anything. The best case scenario for Israel is not a 2 state solution, it’s keeping the status quo up for another 25 years at which point Gaza will be dead and the West Bank will be an Israeli settlement.
And then on the other side we have a people that have been oppressed for so long that they have nothing left to concede or save in a peace deal. When a losing side sues for peace it’s because they’re trying to preserve their way of life after the war, but there is no way of life for Gazans, nothing to save, and therefore no reason to seek peace.
Have you thought about becoming a politician? We could do worse than your clarity….
Oh, I think most Gazans would rather have had their "pax Israeli" life pre-October 7th to what's happened since. I can also understand the "cheering" in Gaza for October 7th (whether or not those cheering understood what Hamas were actually perpetrating). Even if people supported those atrocities (as a response to 75 years of Israeli slow atrocity), I can't see much moral distinction between them and Israelis on the border stopping aid so babies die.I’ve said this months ago, but the problem with this conflict in general, and why it’s unsolvable is that it became far too comfortable for 1 side and gone past intolerable for the other.
Since Iron Dome came in, on average 1-2 people in Israel die a year from this conflict vs 500+ for Palestine. Israel has a booming economy and global position while Palestinians starve and the state goes unrecognised.
So we have a conflict where 1 side faces devastating losses constantly and is kept in a perpetual state of crisis by restrictions imposed by Israel, while the other is able to prosper and grow and expand its territories into the other unchecked.
In that situation we’re never going to get people sitting around the table because Israel has no motivation to concede anything. The best case scenario for Israel is not a 2 state solution, it’s keeping the status quo up for another 25 years at which point Gaza will be dead and the West Bank will be an Israeli settlement.
And then on the other side we have a people that have been oppressed for so long that they have nothing left to concede or save in a peace deal. When a losing side sues for peace it’s because they’re trying to preserve their way of life after the war, but there is no way of life for Gazans, nothing to save, and therefore no reason to seek peace.
There is an existential threat to Israel. It's because what they're doing now is just making people aware of what they've been doing for a long time. The rapid demise of evangelical fundamentalism in the USA is one specific threat, with its odd support for the Jewish State based on the prophecy that "in the last days" the Jews will become Christians. (Holy Land tourists getting abused by right wing Zionists for going near Temple Mount may accelerate that.) But voices to that effect in Israel, looking to Israel's long-term interest, are marginalised.
lust overlord
Well-Known Member
lust overlord
Well-Known Member
I
I
inbetween
Guest
You see it on here quite obviously where it seems it's extremely easy to criticise Israel on a daily basis but extremely difficult to find any real criticism of Hamas except from a handful of posters. Some posters stretch to believe that a country can and should make peace whilst a terrorist organisation holds hostages, it's just completely mad.You've lost the plot. Can you cite anyone for that nonsense?
I still maintain that the current suffering on the part of the Palestinians can be ended tomorrow if Hamas surrenders. Israel would have no choice but to end its war and then it all comes down to diplomacy. This really isn't a difficult concept but it is for some because they would seemingly rather that this armed struggle continues.
The diplomacy is another topic and I would agree with anyone that Israel must be held to account for what came next. However, irrespective I'd say that this diplomacy is much easier than trying to enact peace whilst the bullets are flying.
Only when it suits.
Which is how it’s always been tbf.
I still maintain that the current suffering on the part of the Palestinians can be ended tomorrow if Hamas surrenders.
God I wish I was this naive.
Palestinian suffering predates Hamas’ very existence by about 70 years.
Everything to do with Hamas could spontaneously combust tomorrow and nothing would change in Palestine or Israel.
I
I
inbetween
Guest
Has it got better or worse over the last 6 months following 7/10? The Palestinians have not benefited from Hamas and will never benefit from Hamas and currently more than ever are dying. Why is it not a sensible choice to therefore at least remove Hamas from the equation given the circumstances? I'm not interested in the last 70 years, repeating what has already happened makes no difference to how to end the current situation.God I wish I was this naive.
Palestinian suffering predates Hamas’ very existence by about 70 years.
Everything to do with Hamas could spontaneously combust tomorrow and nothing would change in Palestine or Israel.
I don't see what else works, Israel is under attack at its borders and it probably isn't going to think towards something like a two-state solution right now (if ever). The only way to change that is to remove the aggressors or reduce the power they hold, or hurt Israel's ability to defend itself through sanctions or arms sanctions which is clearly going to an extremely difficult conversation.
If the attacks stop and the violence stops then there's a greater chance of something good happening because the west will be more inclined to pressure Israel to come to the table. The west is however less inclined to do something whilst its ally is effectively at war and even more less so whilst hostages are held in Gaza, the place where a Palestinian state could potentially be formed...
Has it got better or worse over the last 6 months following 7/10? The Palestinians have not benefited from Hamas and will never benefit from Hamas and currently more than ever are dying. Why is it not a sensible choice to therefore at least remove Hamas from the equation given the circumstances? I'm not interested in the last 70 years, repeating what has already happened makes no difference to how to end the current situation.
I don't see what else works, Israel is under attack at its borders and it probably isn't going to think towards something like a two-state solution right now (if ever). The only way to change that is to remove the aggressors or reduce the power they hold, or hurt Israel's ability to defend itself through sanctions or arms sanctions which is clearly going to be very difficult.
If the attacks stop and the violence stops then there's a greater chance of something good happening because the west will be more inclined to pressure Israel to come to the table. The west is however less inclined to do something whilst its ally is effectively at war and even more less so whilst hostages are held in Gaza, the place where a Palestinian state could potentially be formed...
The PLO has not only recognized Israel but is also Israel security subcontractor for Palestinians in the West Bank yet the millions of Palestinians in the West Bank are under a regime worse than apartheid South Africa and probably Jim Crow USA.
This isn’t a rhetorical question but under your assessment what has “giving up” done for them?
Has it got better or worse over the last 6 months following 7/10? The Palestinians have not benefited from Hamas and will never benefit from Hamas and currently more than ever are dying. Why is it not a sensible choice to therefore at least remove Hamas from the equation given the circumstances? I'm not interested in the last 70 years, repeating what has already happened makes no difference to how to end the current situation.
I don't see what else works, Israel is under attack at its borders and it probably isn't going to think towards something like a two-state solution right now (if ever). The only way to change that is to remove the aggressors or reduce the power they hold, or hurt Israel's ability to defend itself through sanctions or arms sanctions which is clearly going to an extremely difficult conversation.
If the attacks stop and the violence stops then there's a greater chance of something good happening because the west will be more inclined to pressure Israel to come to the table. The west is however less inclined to do something whilst its ally is effectively at war and even more less so whilst hostages are held in Gaza, the place where a Palestinian state could potentially be formed...
The sad truth is Palestine has never had more popular support in my life time than in the last 6 months, weekly marches going bring out huge numbers of people while Israel has been brought to court on genocide accusations, George Galloway is winning by elections “for Gaza” and people in the US are seriously debating the ethics of supplying arms to Israel for the first time.
It’s tragic, and it’s appalling that it took a terrorist massacre to put the conflict back in the worldwide spotlight and on the front pages, but if the Palestinian people followed your advice we’d just revert to the status quo - them losing thousands of people per year while Israel chokes them and builds more and more settlements and steals more and more land as the world ignores it.
Your solution is tantamount to sweeping the whole thing under the rug until the next flashpoint erupts.
LesBleuMiserable
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 11 May 2011
- Messages
- 3,734
I dont thinks it’s nativity.God I wish I was this naive.
Palestinian suffering predates Hamas’ very existence by about 70 years.
Everything to do with Hamas could spontaneously combust tomorrow and nothing would change in Palestine or Israel.
There has been a long running narrative
Fool me once
Fool me twice…