Milner [Merged]

[Monkfish]

I slagged these stats off yesterday but
Castrol rankings
1192 Ireland (594 previous year)
155 Milner (up from 215 previous year)

I cant find comparative stats for last year as they only have the top 50 in chances made, goals scored, tackles won, assists etc ...and only 1 of the 2 players mentioned appears in the top 50 lists

Last post on this from me, if you think Milner and Ireland are at all similar you either
a) know nothing about the game
b) are someone who hasnt seen Milner play but likes spouting off
c) both

for what its worth I'm not anti Ireland, I would take a punt on him coming good again but not so sure that will happen at City

 

[Marvin]

Milner has developed and improved as a player. The most relevant season is his last season

You can't use his lifetime stats to judge the player as he is now. If you could then Michael Owen would be a favourite for the golden boot

Milner is a driving midfielder with a great cross - which saw him to 3rd in the assists table. You need players like Milner. It's not clever to compare and contrast to different types of midfielder like Ozil or Ireland

I would make the same argument of Ireland as well though. He has developed and improved as a player with his best season in the 2008/2009 season with 9G/9A which was an improvement on the 4G/3A he had in the 2007/2008 season. He started the 2009/2010 season with 2G and 2A rather quickly but then fell off form after the dizzy spell and never really got a good run in the team after that.

Again, you haven't answered the question of why we "need" someone like Milner. He's not a different player than Ireland to be honest. Milner is a 5'7", 153 pound centre midfielder. Ireland is 5'9", 150 pound centre midfielder. They are both 24. They have a relatively close goal per game ratio. I can't think of a more apples to apples comparison than the 2 of them. So rather than say something generic with no proof like "Milner is a different player than them" why don't you come up with a credible argument that makes Milner worth up to 3 times as much as Stevie.

WTF have their weights got to do with it, or their goal ratios?

They are different types of midfielder. Milner can run through tackles, can go wide and is able to drive the game forward, where Ireland is looking to beat players with one twos, and is a a very creative forward passer of the ball. He's always looking to play the forward in with a clever through ball. Milner is a more all round midfielder. And he has the ability to go wide and whip a cross in. You rarely see Ireland do that

If you want to look at the England team I'd compare Milner to gerrard and Ireland to Cole

The value is largely determined by the fact that Villa are unwilling sellers

 

[macmanson]

I still like him. sure, he's not 12m more talented than steven ireland. 25m is pretty crazy but unlike jolean last year, I can see that as a whole package, there probably isn't another player available for less, who ticks all the boxes. so there is your 'value'.

stamina and good crossing is a pretty rare, (and very useful) combination. plus he can do it off either foot. his touch is good, he has a few tricks and just enough pace. he has no real weakness whatsoever, save not being as fast as bellamy or as tricky as robinho. his workrate, mentality and match craft are superb, despite only being 24 he's got 7 seasons under his belt, form has had ups and downs but the downs are hardly worth talking about, he's been a stand out player in every team he's played for, never let anyone down, never had a dreadful spell. little by little he's asserted himself on the english game.

he's still more talented with the ball at his feet than many on here appear to think. he is competent in every aspect of midfield play, he's learned to apply himself consistently. he'll do whatever job you ask of him, to the upmost, week after week. he's young, and is still developing. crucially, he counts towards the magic eight, and can do any number of jobs very well indeed.

he helps squeeze as much usefullness out of that 25 as possible. adaptable english players of the required standard like him, are like hen's teeth.

he'll come in and play on the right of the diamond. or the left. we have good defensive minded midfielders but not enough to sit on either side of the midfield. or he'll fill in at the tip. it doesn't matter, he has the right balance of skills for any of those roles. that's why we're still after him. yes, the money is crazy, but whilst Ireland doesn't like playing on the left or right of a narrow midfield, whilst the likes of ozil are only really suited to playing in the hole, this guy can and will do 'the dirty work'.

Again, those are lots of nice platitudes but hardly any convincing proof of all that. During last year, he was mainly played as a CM on the right but a few times on the left and almost never as a winger. Also the goals/assists he did collect weren't exactly against top notch teams either.

1G - Birmingham
1G @ Hull
1A - Everton
1G @ Wigan
3A - Burnley
1G, 1A @ Sunderland
1G, 1A - Hull
1A @ Burnley
1G, 2A - Bolton
1A @ Blackburn
1G, 1A - Portsmouth
1A - Fulham

So for me, he does not improve the team from the potential top 4 team we were last year. He doesn't get it done against the top teams in the league, so therefore is not an improvement on what we already have.

We had 4 midfielders in the top 20 of assist leaders with Craig Bellamy @ 7 (10A), Adam Johnson @ 13 (9A), SWP @ 17 (7A) & Gareth Barry @ 19 (7A), Carlos Tevez had 7 and even Adebayor had 6A. We've never had a problem with midfielders distributing the ball for goals. It's been winning defensive battles that has been the issue and a 5'7" and 153 pounds I hardly see how he's going to improve the toughness of our midfield.

 

[Ticket For Schalke]

I still like him. sure, he's not 12m more talented than steven ireland. 25m is pretty crazy but unlike jolean last year, I can see that as a whole package, there probably isn't another player available for less, who ticks all the boxes. so there is your 'value'.

stamina and good crossing is a pretty rare, (and very useful) combination. plus he can do it off either foot. his touch is good, he has a few tricks and just enough pace. he has no real weakness whatsoever, save not being as fast as bellamy or as tricky as robinho. his workrate, mentality and match craft are superb, despite only being 24 he's got 7 seasons under his belt, form has had ups and downs but the downs are hardly worth talking about, he's been a stand out player in every team he's played for, never let anyone down, never had a dreadful spell. little by little he's asserted himself on the english game.

he's still more talented with the ball at his feet than many on here appear to think. he is competent in every aspect of midfield play, he's learned to apply himself consistently. he'll do whatever job you ask of him, to the upmost, week after week. he's young, and is still developing. crucially, he counts towards the magic eight, and can do any number of jobs very well indeed.

he helps squeeze as much usefullness out of that 25 as possible. adaptable english players of the required standard like him, are like hen's teeth.

he'll come in and play on the right of the diamond. or the left. we have good defensive minded midfielders but not enough to sit on either side of the midfield. or he'll fill in at the tip. it doesn't matter, he has the right balance of skills for any of those roles. that's why we're still after him. yes, the money is crazy, but whilst Ireland doesn't like playing on the left or right of a narrow midfield, whilst the likes of ozil are only really suited to playing in the hole, this guy can and will do 'the dirty work'.

Again, those are lots of nice platitudes but hardly any convincing proof of all that. During last year, he was mainly played as a CM on the right but a few times on the left and almost never as a winger. Also the goals/assists he did collect weren't exactly against top notch teams either.

1G - Birmingham
1G @ Hull
1A - Everton
1G @ Wigan
3A - Burnley
1G, 1A @ Sunderland
1G, 1A - Hull
1A @ Burnley
1G, 2A - Bolton
1A @ Blackburn
1G, 1A - Portsmouth
1A - Fulham

So for me, he does not improve the team from the potential top 4 team we were last year. He doesn't get it done against the top teams in the league, so therefore is not an improvement on what we already have.

We had 4 midfielders in the top 20 of assist leaders with Craig Bellamy @ 7 (10A), Adam Johnson @ 13 (9A), SWP @ 17 (7A) & Gareth Barry @ 19 (7A), Carlos Tevez had 7 and even Adebayor had 6A. We've never had a problem with midfielders distributing the ball for goals. It's been winning defensive battles that has been the issue and a 5'7" and 153 pounds I hardly see how he's going to improve the toughness of our midfield.

but we had a decent record against the "big" 4.

 

[Marvin]

I still like him. sure, he's not 12m more talented than steven ireland. 25m is pretty crazy but unlike jolean last year, I can see that as a whole package, there probably isn't another player available for less, who ticks all the boxes. so there is your 'value'.

stamina and good crossing is a pretty rare, (and very useful) combination. plus he can do it off either foot. his touch is good, he has a few tricks and just enough pace. he has no real weakness whatsoever, save not being as fast as bellamy or as tricky as robinho. his workrate, mentality and match craft are superb, despite only being 24 he's got 7 seasons under his belt, form has had ups and downs but the downs are hardly worth talking about, he's been a stand out player in every team he's played for, never let anyone down, never had a dreadful spell. little by little he's asserted himself on the english game.

he's still more talented with the ball at his feet than many on here appear to think. he is competent in every aspect of midfield play, he's learned to apply himself consistently. he'll do whatever job you ask of him, to the upmost, week after week. he's young, and is still developing. crucially, he counts towards the magic eight, and can do any number of jobs very well indeed.

he helps squeeze as much usefullness out of that 25 as possible. adaptable english players of the required standard like him, are like hen's teeth.

he'll come in and play on the right of the diamond. or the left. we have good defensive minded midfielders but not enough to sit on either side of the midfield. or he'll fill in at the tip. it doesn't matter, he has the right balance of skills for any of those roles. that's why we're still after him. yes, the money is crazy, but whilst Ireland doesn't like playing on the left or right of a narrow midfield, whilst the likes of ozil are only really suited to playing in the hole, this guy can and will do 'the dirty work'.

Again, those are lots of nice platitudes but hardly any convincing proof of all that. During last year, he was mainly played as a CM on the right but a few times on the left and almost never as a winger. Also the goals/assists he did collect weren't exactly against top notch teams either.

1G - Birmingham
1G @ Hull
1A - Everton
1G @ Wigan
3A - Burnley
1G, 1A @ Sunderland
1G, 1A - Hull
1A @ Burnley
1G, 2A - Bolton
1A @ Blackburn
1G, 1A - Portsmouth
1A - Fulham

So for me, he does not improve the team from the potential top 4 team we were last year. He doesn't get it done against the top teams in the league, so therefore is not an improvement on what we already have.

We had 4 midfielders in the top 20 of assist leaders with Craig Bellamy @ 7 (10A), Adam Johnson @ 13 (9A), SWP @ 17 (7A) & Gareth Barry @ 19 (7A), Carlos Tevez had 7 and even Adebayor had 6A. We've never had a problem with midfielders distributing the ball for goals. It's been winning defensive battles that has been the issue and a 5'7" and 153 pounds I hardly see how he's going to improve the toughness of our midfield.

Despite not playing as a winger, he is still one of the best crossers of the ball
in the Premiership. Villa have the two best in Milner and Young.

Your argument about not producing against the top 4 is ridiculous. It's a team game. And there's a big gap between Villa and the top 4 - they picked a lot of points up against the lower teams away from home with their counter-attacking football

I thought he was one of England's better performers in the World Cup and he put in some great crosses which England failed to capitalise upon. In fact he was probably the only consistently creative player England possessed.

 

[macmanson]

WTF have their weights got to do with it, or their goal ratios?

Because we have already determined that he isn't coming to be a defensive midfielder, so his only worth to us is his attacking prowess, which is shown to be vastly overrated. He's scored most of his goals and assists against lower table teams. How he achieve's the goals and assists is not as relevant to simply achieving them. If I have 2 players who can guarantee me 10 goals each per season, playing different styles, I would be a fool to pay 3 times more for one of them. That's my argument. Milner is a useful squad player to us, not a 30m pound starter that Aston Villa are valuing him at. We can can get equal or better for far less.

 

[richards30]

but to be honest it was our record record against the shitter teams that let us down again!!!!! hull in both games,fulham home,burnley home etc......city have always been the same struggling to go to a team like stoke and win!!

 

[Marvin]

WTF have their weights got to do with it, or their goal ratios?

Because we have already determined that he isn't coming to be a defensive midfielder, so his only worth to us is his attacking prowess, which is shown to be vastly overrated. He's scored most of his goals and assists against lower table teams. How he achieve's the goals and assists is not as relevant to simply achieving them. If I have 2 players who can guarantee me 10 goals each per season, playing different styles, I would be a fool to pay 3 times more for one of them. That's my argument. Milner is a useful squad player to us, not a 30m pound starter that Aston Villa are valuing him at. We can can get equal or better for far less.

We have not determined anything of the kind......you have merely asserted it which is quite a different matter. We wouldn't be buying him for purely his attacking game - but for his all round game.

 

[DontLookBackInAnger]

It doesn't really matter who you score against, the bottom-line is most players will have a better record against the weaker teams. Losing away to Hull is just the same as losing away to the rags, in terms of league points.

 

[malg]

this has turned into a really boring thread.......I'm off to Off Topic.