The Liverpool Thread

<a class="postlink" href="http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100125657/we-either-adopt-zero-tolerance-towards-racism-in-football-or-we-dont-its-as-simple-as-that/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danho ... e-as-that/</a>

We either adopt zero tolerance towards racism in football or we don't. It's as simple as that
By Dan Hodges
What I’d really like this Christmas is a signed photo of Tommy Smith. Smith is not a household name outside of his native Liverpool. But within the city of his birth he is a legend.
Tommy Smith scored the greatest goal ever scored by the nation’s greatest football team. On a sweltering night in Rome in 1977, Liverpool were locked in a desperate struggle with German side Borussia Monchengladbach. The winner would be crowned champions of Europe, but the momentum of the match was shifting away from the Merseysiders. An early goal had been cancelled out, and only a defiant save by England goalkeeper Ray Clemence managed to keep Liverpool on terms.
Then, in the 64th minute, Liverpool won a corner. Steve Highway, the languid number nine, floated the ball in from the left, Smith attacked it, arriving just ahead of two fatally distracted Borussia defenders, and a header bulleted into the top corner of the net. A late penalty sealed the victory, but it was Smith’s goal that had won the game and set his team on course for a period of unprecedented domestic and European dominance.
I would love that photo. I really would. But I won’t be getting it.
The reason is an interview Smith gave to journalist and author Dave Hill for his book The John Barnes Phenomenon which examined the impact of Liverpool’s first truly successful black player on the club, city and wider footballing world. Speaking about another former black player, Howard Gayle, Smith said, “Howard suffered from a black man's attitude towards the white man. See, everybody thinks whites have an attitude towards blacks. In reality it's blacks who have a problem with the whites". He added that as a form of affection, "I used to call Howard the 'White ******'. Now that is a compliment. It was the only way I could find to describe that I thought he was OK”. Just to remove any lingering doubts about his attitude on matters of race, Smith added, "I'm not prejudiced but if a coon moved in next door, I'd move, like most white people would. If my daughter came home with a ******, I'd go mad. But I'm only being truthful and normal”.
Tommy Smith is a football hero. My earliest childhood memories are of Liverpool games and goals. I used to hold a Kop season ticket. The moment I got Kenny Dalglish’s autograph on Hoylake golf course remains the greatest of my life.
But there are some things in life more important than where the next three points are coming from. This week Liverpool football club forgot that.
On Tuesday the team’s striker Luis Suarez was found guilty by the Football Association of using "insulting words" towards Manchester United’s Parice Evra that "included a reference to Mr Evra's colour". He was banned for eight matches.
The response of the nation’s greatest football club to the news their star player had been found guilty of using a racial epithet to taunt an opponent. Humility? Dignity? No. Instead a cascade of self-righteousness and self-indulgence. “Luis Suarez needs our full support. Let's not let him walk alone,” was Kenny Dalglish’s trite response. The club itself chose to attack, yes attack, Evra, stating “that the accusation by this particular player was not credible”. This despite the fact an independent panel had just ruled the claim he was abused by Suarez was entirely credible.
The verdict was, according to the club, “extraordinary”. Despite the fact Suarez is reported to have admitted calling Evra a “negro” or “negrito” in his native Portugese. Suarez, and the club’s, defence is apparently based on the argument “negrito” can be used as a form of “affection”.
Now, it may well be that in a crowded penalty box, in the heat of a bad tempered encounter with Liverpool’s most bitter domestic rivals, Suarez was suddenly seized with affection for Evra. Overcome with the emotion of the moment he may also have chosen to give voice to these warm feelings in his native tongue.
But it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if Suarez has a black grandfather, or done charity work to “encourage solidarity amongst people with different backgrounds”. We either adopt a zero tolerance approach to racism, or we don’t.
Let’s invert the argument. What if the FA had ruled calling an opponent “negro” was acceptable? What would be the experience of black players up and down the country? The taunt of “negrito” would blight professional, sunday league and school matches up and down the land.
"Black bastard" bad. "Negro bastard" fine. "Coon" an abhorrence. "Negrito" a term of endearment. This is not a defence, it is linguistic sophistry.
Suarez has the option of an appeal. He may yet be vindicated. But at the moment he is a guilty man. And the least Liverpool football club could do is show some awareness of that fact.
Liverpool’s great manger Bill Shankly once famously remarked that football was “much more important” than life or death”. Shankly was wrong.
 
Re: Andy Carroll blowing his chance- Martin Samuel

peoffrey said:
bammy blue said:
mcmanus said:
A footballer who abstains from alcohol and other vices is far more likely to fulfil his potential than some Geordie pisscan who likes a brawl.

was talking to my mate about this at dinner and we both said the same thing, how can somebody who could have everything not get it into his head that all he has to do is knuckle down for 15 years have a possibly good career. then go out and get steaming every night shag as many brasses he wants, stupid just stupid.

You suspect that's what Milner is doing. He's teetotal. Doesn't strike me as being the kind of player to pay a visit to the local massage parlour, though. He's intelligent.
Are you saying you have to be thick to buy a brass?
 
Re: Andy Carroll blowing his chance- Martin Samuel

bluemoondays said:
In a years time the dippers will cut their losses and sell him for max £15m (if they're lucky) to some hit and hope long ball team. They may even end up in the same situation as us with Badabuyor and RSC, we can't even shift them because of wages and the sorts of teams that want an "Andy Carroll type" a) won't have £15m and b) won't want to pay anything like his dippers wages.

I'd stop being so smug about Carroll because Dzeko could go the same way on the pitch. He's starting matches for me right now.
 
Re: Andy Carroll blowing his chance- Martin Samuel

I think Carrolls only on around £60k a week which in footballing terms is very little when you stand it up against other players.

I'm not going to defend the lad though, the only thing that keeps me sane about his purchase is watching Torres struggle at Chelsea and as sad as that is, it stops me ripping my hair out over Carroll.
 
Re: Andy Carroll blowing his chance- Martin Samuel

MSP said:
Dalglish got mad on some question about Carroll on post match interview. I don't understand a word he says so I don't know what he was about.

He basically told the press that they are the ones making up transfer stories about Carroll, so its up to them to justify the story not him.

I just wish he said Andy is on verge of completing his move back to Newcastle.

I'd take a £20m hit on the lad now, he's never going to integrate into the type of football that Kenny seems to want to play.
 
Re: Andy Carroll blowing his chance- Martin Samuel

Second half King Kenneth played with a back 5 with a defensive mid with no intention of going forward so you can write of the entire second half for Carroll.
 
Re: Andy Carroll blowing his chance- Martin Samuel

RedLFCBlood said:
MSP said:
Dalglish got mad on some question about Carroll on post match interview. I don't understand a word he says so I don't know what he was about.

He basically told the press that they are the ones making up transfer stories about Carroll, so its up to them to justify the story not him.

I just wish he said Andy is on verge of completing his move back to Newcastle.

I'd take a £20m hit on the lad now, he's never going to integrate into the type of football that Kenny seems to want to play.

Would you pay 20m for player that played like Carroll last 12 months ? I'm not sure you would..

Based on his performances in last year where he basically had one good game (against us last season) he's not worth more than 5m. But he might be worth gambling up to 10-15 millions, can't see anyone paying a quid more for him at this moment.<br /><br />-- Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:45 pm --<br /><br />
Mark - TheBlue said:
Second half King Kenneth played with a back 5 with a defensive mid with no intention of going forward so you can write of the entire second half for Carroll.

they finished the game with 6 at back.
 
Re: Andy Carroll blowing his chance- Martin Samuel

Mark - TheBlue said:
Second half King Kenneth played with a back 5 with a defensive mid with no intention of going forward so you can write of the entire second half for Carroll.
Regardless of how many people he had up field with him he still should have been attempting to hold the ball up far better, everything they lumped up at him (for that's how they played in the second half) was either aimlessly flicked on to no-one, missed completely, or bounced off him like he was the side of a garage and kids were using him to play wallie. He was awful, I don't think I've seen a worse performance, certainly not from a £35m footballer. Lets not forget Aguero cost £38.5m!
 
Re: Andy Carroll blowing his chance- Martin Samuel

While I felt that Liverpool's performance last night was a good one on the whole, I have to agree that I thought Carroll was awful. I'm beginning to wonder if he's merely another Samaras.
 
Re: Andy Carroll blowing his chance- Martin Samuel

Matty said:
Mark - TheBlue said:
Second half King Kenneth played with a back 5 with a defensive mid with no intention of going forward so you can write of the entire second half for Carroll.
Regardless of how many people he had up field with him he still should have been attempting to hold the ball up far better, everything they lumped up at him (for that's how they played in the second half) was either aimlessly flicked on to no-one, missed completely, or bounced off him like he was the side of a garage and kids were using him to play wallie. He was awful, I don't think I've seen a worse performance, certainly not from a £35m footballer. Lets not forget Aguero cost £38.5m!

To be honest I don't think people will agree but in the second half when the tussels came between Savic and Carroll I think Savic handled him well to be fair to the lad. Not saying Carroll is a good play he is okay would score allot more in a different side I think but it isn't working for him at Liverpool.
 
Re: Andy Carroll blowing his chance- Martin Samuel

Mark - TheBlue said:
Second half King Kenneth played with a back 5 with a defensive mid with no intention of going forward so you can write of the entire second half for Carroll.

As already stated, isolated or not, he had plenty of decent opportunities to bring the ball under control and on virtually every occasion he made a right pig's ear of it. There are no excuses for his performance last night IMO.
 
Re: Andy Carroll blowing his chance- Martin Samuel

M18CTID said:
Mark - TheBlue said:
Second half King Kenneth played with a back 5 with a defensive mid with no intention of going forward so you can write of the entire second half for Carroll.

As already stated, isolated or not, he had plenty of decent opportunities to bring the ball under control and on virtually every occasion he made a right pig's ear of it. There are no excuses for his performance last night IMO.

Ive seen Dzeko do allot of what I'm hearing here. Carroll needs to be sold but I want Liverpool to keep him! Rather play against him than the other twat!
 
Re: Andy Carroll blowing his chance- Martin Samuel

Got to feel sorry for Liverpool

They get an unbelievable 50m pounds for Torres

Then blow 50 of it on Carroll and Henderson. Oh and chuck in another 20m for Downing for good luck

I'm pretty happy we got Bale, Ekotto, Lennon, Van Der Vaart, Modric, Kaboul, Friedel & Walker for the price of Carroll
 
Not going to quote the entire post above but I never thought about the connotations of them letting him off
Let’s invert the argument. What if the FA had ruled calling an opponent “negro” was acceptable? What would be the experience of black players up and down the country? The taunt of “negrito” would blight professional, sunday league and school matches up and down the land.
"Black bastard" bad. "Negro bastard" fine. "Coon" an abhorrence. "Negrito" a term of endearment. This is not a defence, it is linguistic sophistry.

You could just see it couldn't you, "Yes, I called him a negrito bastard", ref, but it's OK because the FA said it is :D
 
I've read the FA's written reasons (all 155 pages) and it's far more damning than the scousers are making out. Suarez clearly lied about the key incidents.

First, he lied about what he said to Evra (he doesn't deny he used the word). His story is that Evra called him a "South American" and he replied with something roughly translated as "What's up blackie." It was this he claimed was a friendly term.

Evra said that he had asked Suarez why he'd fouled him and claims Suarez said "Because you're black". Evra then said something else to Suarez and claimed he said "I don't talk to blacks" back to him. Suarez denies this exchange took place.

However Suarez had told both Comolli (in Spanish) and Kuyt (in Dutch) that he'd said something closer to "Because you're black" and that was what they told the ref, Andre Marriner at the time. The three of them all back-tracked on this to some degree at the hearing. Also, they had video evidence that supported Evra's claim that a second exchange took place, something that Suarez had denied.

So, as far as it could under the circumstances, the evidence clearly supported Evra's view and the panel were quite clear on that.
 
Aston Villa have taken a leaf out of Arsenal's book and erected a statue of Emile Heskey.

The statue is said to be starting Saturdays game.




Liverpool have also offered £35m for it.
 

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