Var debate 2019/20

If, as has been widely reported, it is true that VAR has a margin of error of 13cms on off side calls because of the camera speed then it is impossible to give any one offside by less than 13 cms. Surely this change has to be brought in immediately. The simplest solution is to use 13 cms as the guideline ie you can only be offside by more than 13 cms to take account of the limit of the technology. Doing this would cut out most of the nonsense decisions.
 
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TheRemainsOfTheDave said:
You'll catch a few with that one.

Remember when they instructed refs to take action in the box against players who block the attacker when defending a corner? When Sterling conceded a penalty? Don't think it happened again all season or since - same thing will happen here, there'll be dozens of accidental handballs left unpunished.
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I'm making a prediction. People will disbelieve it now but come the end of the season I'll be right and the disbelievers wrong. I'm not talking about those who do not accept VAR per se but about those who think that they will use VAR to screw us over. Ultimately, VAR will be good for City.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
I think it’s quite clear.

1. Handball (even if accidental)
2. Gains possession of the ball and then
2i. Scores in the opponents net
2ii. Creates a goal scoring opportunity (can be for himself or a team mate, why does that matter? a gso is a gso and 2ii doesn’t matter anyway if he doesn’t gain possession of the ball)
3. Or scores directly in the opponents net with his arm (even if accidental)

So to break that down into two examples:

Llorente CL goal
1. It was accidental handball by Llorente
2. He did not gain possession of the ball
2i. Void as he didn’t gain possession of the ball
2ii. Void as he didn’t gain possession of the ball
3. The ball hit his arm then hit his hip and went in, it didn’t go directly into the goal off his arm
= GOAL

Jesus Prem goal
1. It was accidental handball by Laporte
2. He did not gain possession of the ball
2i. Void
2ii. Void
3. Void as the ball went to a teammate (Jesus) after he accidentally handballed, not straight onto the net
= GOAL
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you keep repeating the same thing but you do not understand that difference between gaining possession of the ball and gaining control of the ball . The law differentiates between the two .

Gaining control = The player has now got the ball under their control.

Gaining Possession = The player has gained or kept possession of the ball for their team .

The ball hits his arm and therefore falls to Jesus (kept possession following the cross ) . Jesus then scores .

Goal disallowed because of an unfair advantage from the ball hitting his arm .
 
alexmcity said:
I'm making a prediction. People will disbelieve it now but come the end of the season I'll be right and the disbelievers wrong. I'm not talking about those who do not accept VAR per se but about those who think that they will use VAR to screw us over. Ultimately, VAR will be good for City.
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It'll be difficult to prove. You'd need to take into account how important the decision was (late winners vs 5th goal in a 5-0 win etc) plus build in adjustments due to the number of chances a team makes. Then you'll need to factor in when VAR was or wasn't used and whether that was a correct decision in the first place.
 
alexmcity said:
VAR will be good for City ultimately. Dippers and rags won't score from off-side positions at least and won't get so many favourable decisions. Rags got 12 pens last season, 3 times what we got. Won't happen with VAR, I'm perfectly sure about that. We'll benefit in some important games from VAR as well and people will find it more acceptable.
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No it won't be acceptable to me in its current format. I don't want to see the current farce continue and ruin the season for everyone. While the handball rule is an important aspect it is not the root cause of the problem. VAR is not been operated imo in a manner which is fair and consi
stent and to reduce the incidence of clear and obvious errors affecting the outcome of games. It failed miserably on Saturday in this regard. Missed correcting an error for the penalty and then struck off a goal which nobody in the universe saw anything wrong with. Sorry but VAR in its current state is not fit for purpose and I don't want to win or lose the league as a result of its bullshit interventions.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
I think it’s quite clear.

1. Handball (even if accidental)
2. Gains possession of the ball and then
2i. Scores in the opponents net
2ii. Creates a goal scoring opportunity (can be for himself or a team mate, why does that matter? a gso is a gso and 2ii doesn’t matter anyway if he doesn’t gain possession of the ball)
3. Or scores directly in the opponents net with his arm (even if accidental)

So to break that down into two examples:

Llorente CL goal
1. It was accidental handball by Llorente
2. He did not gain possession of the ball
2i. Void as he didn’t gain possession of the ball
2ii. Void as he didn’t gain possession of the ball
3. The ball hit his arm then hit his hip and went in, it didn’t go directly into the goal off his arm
= GOAL

Jesus Prem goal
1. It was accidental handball by Laporte
2. He did not gain possession of the ball
2i. Void
2ii. Void
3. Void as the ball went to a teammate (Jesus) after he accidentally handballed, not straight onto the net
= GOAL
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It's quite clear to us, PC, and were I the whistling wanker strolling about the lush acres of The Etihad on Saturday I would have had no hesitation at awarding the pen. And were I in the VAR shed at Stockley and had the incident referred to me I would have had less hesitation in confirming the same. I concur with all those re Jesus's goal - he didn't have the ball brush his arm or hand and consequently didn't gain a goal scoring opportunity. It was a nailed on, blatant, stonewall pen and it was a goal that didn't have an infringement nailed on to the goalscorer. If Oliver or Scott were goalkeepers both of those incidents would be described as 'howlers'. These two are experienced referees and referees with that level of experience don't make those 'honest' mistakes. Too many questions remain regarding those two incidents that can't be dismissed by just parroting 'honest mistake'?

I've just read that Scott didn't make the CFC game yesterday because he got 'caught in traffic'? Interesting or what, and Pep has suggested that refs shouldn't be doing two important games in two days. Can't see where the hard work is in looking at a monitor and making a decision.
 
Regardless of whether the handball decision was correct or not I do think there’s something fundamentally wrong with the VAR system. When this all seeing eye can rule a goal out for something nobody in the stadium, players, officials or fans could see, but is unable to do anything about a rugby tackle in the penalty area then something is clearly wrong. The foul on Rodri was as clear and obvious an error as you’re likely to see.
From what we’ve seen already, and I’ll admit I’m sympathetic to the whole agenda conversation, but this system as I suspected it would be is open to manipulation in terms of how and when it is used.
We got shafted on Saturday, and we can’t even have a go the referee because he had fuck all to do with it.
VAR should have been a system that was fair and we could all trust, unfortunately the operators are every bit as questionable as they always have been.
 
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader said:
It's this deliberately murky bit that can be hidden behind. Creating a goal-scoring opportunity for whom? I would always read that it is a gso for the person whose arm the ball inadvertently brushed against, but now it's been given that Laporte gave Jesus an opportunity it can be dragged back to God knows what incident. I think they have looked for anything iffy whilst the ball was bobbling around and found Laporte loitering with intent. I would bet the cheating bastards would redefine that bit when it comes to a Rag or Dipper arm.
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but thats irrelevant, see the underlined but, for the goalscoring opportunity to come into play, Laporte would have had to gain control, which he obviously didn't
 
alexmcity said:
I'm making a prediction. People will disbelieve it now but come the end of the season I'll be right and the disbelievers wrong. I'm not talking about those who do not accept VAR per se but about those who think that they will use VAR to screw us over. Ultimately, VAR will be good for City.
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I admire your optimism but will be amazed if Liverpool or United suffer the sort of decisions we have had. They have been getting suspicious decisions for decades at the expense of other teams, not just City. Remember the "Howard Webb" match between United and Arsenal which has been posted here many times. Look at the Super Cup penalty where the Liverpool keeper clearly came off his line. Chelsea were cheated plain and simple. I hope you are right but let's wait and see.
 
johnnytapia said:
How can something that kills, stone dead, the joy of a goal be anything but a disaster? Check, re-check, re-check the check. Do me a fucking favour. It's shit and anyone, like me, who's been to the two games this season, knows it. But hey, it makes great telly.
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As it currently stands VAR is not perfect and it most definitely has some teething issues.

The first thing it needs to be a success is for the replays to be shown at the game and the refs need to be microphoned so the fans can hear what they are checking. There is no way a match going fan should have less of an experience than the armchair fan.

However, something has to give if we want to have more accurate decisions. Losing a game due to a wrongly disallowed goal is also a disaster. Same as the ref refusing to give a blatant penalty like on Saturday.
 
Not sure if discussed already but having a ref in the VAR room that is lower profile or less experienced than the on field ref is a problem for me

Take the Rodri pen shout, Oliver somehow misses it, now it's up to the less experienced VAR operator to undermine him, there's going to be some reluctance there.

A simple solution would be to bring in ex refs like Hackett, Halsey, Webb etc. to operate VAR.
 
alexmcity said:
VAR will be good for City ultimately. Dippers and rags won't score from off-side positions at least and won't get so many favourable decisions. Rags got 12 pens last season, 3 times what we got. Won't happen with VAR, I'm perfectly sure about that. We'll benefit in some important games from VAR as well and people will find it more acceptable.
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What are those happy pills you are taking? I want some.
 
I know this has been mentioned before, but just to throw my point in there, VAR is fucking wank. It spoils the best thing about football, celebrating a goal, and it's very likely that after 21 years I will be sacking my season ticket off next year if they don't sort this bullshit out.
 
MillionMilesAway said:
I'm not sure why there are complaints about the handball not being 'clear and obvious'. I don't think there is any requirement for this to be C&O, just as with offside. Hitting the arm is hitting the arm.

The VARring of potential fouls seems nerfed completely. The VAR man has to see something definitive enough to make the ref overrule himself, pitchside reviews are to be very rare, so all the onfield ref needs to say is 'I'm certain' and that's that. It would be better not to use it at all than this half-arsed version.
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This is a current major flaw which needs to be ironed out ASAP.

Refs should not be allowed to pick and choose which on-field incidents they want to check. They either have to check them all or scrap using VAR for potential penalty calls.
 
Ok now I've had some time to cool down and reflect on our last two games, here's my thoughts on events.

We can moan about Raz's offside decision against West Ham, the non penalty shout and the disallowed goal against Spurs as much as we want, but we can't change past results. Those 2 points cannot be reclaimed.

Now that the season has started, the handball rule, interpretation of contact in the penalty area and use of VAR technology should be applied CONSISTENTLY to ALL teams for the remainder of the season.

In my opinion City are the most technically gifted side in the Premer League, so we will absolutely storm this season, if all teams are judged in the same way as we have in the last two games. if consistency isn't applied then City should create a shit storm by producing a dossier of inconsistencies. Pep has already started this by pointing out that the Liverpool keeper was off his line for the penalty save the other night.

Don't for one second think that the press are criticizing VAR for City's benefit. You just need to consider for a moment how our opponents will fare if they no longer receive soft penalties and dodgy offside calls.

Now that we've been penalized by the inept use of the technology, they are applying pressure to prevent the old guard from receiving the same treatment.

The use of VAR will settle down with time and lessons should be learnt about attempting to use inadequate technology to make absolute decisions.

What really disappoints me, is how the use of the technology is giving a major advantage to the defence over the attack, as they are looking for the slightest opportunity to chalk off a goal.

As well as losing the spontaneous joy of celebrating a goal, the amount of disallowed goals will also spoil the entertainment of the game for the global TV audience. Once the Premier League realises the damage that this has on their brand, changes will be made.
 
Gutted...but we'll still claim our third title in a row this season by a clear 10 points.
No sweat
 
bluejon said:
I know this has been mentioned before, but just to throw my point in there, VAR is fucking wank. It spoils the best thing about football, celebrating a goal, and it's very likely that after 21 years I will be sacking my season ticket off next year if they don't sort this bullshit out.
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We all need to voice our displeasure in any way we can as I don't think some people are seeing the way this is going. There seem to be lots of people who will decide at the end of the season how this affects the pleasure of attending games. I have already decided to not bother with cup games for two people as most are on the telly anyway and when a ridiculous decision goes against us I can at least have a proper burst of anger and a rant which would likely get me a stadium ban. Was thinking of doing some away games this season which I don't normally do due to workload, but that's canned too, until I know how this pans out.

When the club email surveys start appearing I'll be voicing my displeasure that's for sure.
 
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