VAR thread 2022/23

[stonerblue]

I was merely highlighting hyperbole from someone that regularly denounces hyperbole.

Hadn’t realised doing that now makes one a ‘dick’. I’ll note that for the future.

Seems a bit more like being pedantic over semantics.

 

[SebastianBlue]

I meant fifa as in the video game.

I knew what you meant, though, given all of the talk about various organisations, I can’t blame @BlueMoonAcrossThePond for not realising your meaning immediately.

I think you have a point, as there is an argument that we could get to the state where the sport is so sterilised and mechanised that it becomes difficult to justify it being played by humans (going toward your comment alluding to it might as well just be the video game version).

I don’t think we are anywhere near that yet, and we can avoid that with some smart policies and modifications.

And AI itself isn’t infallible, even implementations with the best intents; we have many examples of that just in the last few years.

But I do worry the governing bodies, in their endless quest for a product that can be perfectly controlled, monetised, and expanded, may not make the decisions that are best for the game (or the common fan experience). And certainly unlikely to do it for match going fans that constitute a fraction of revenue-generation of the modern game (despite being one of the main components to creating the spectacle that helps generate the revenue).

 

[SebastianBlue]

Seems a bit more like being pedantic over semantics.

That is definitely a fair criticism. And one the poster I was replying to is guilty of quite often, as well. Which was partly why I responded in the way I did.

I have absolutely no issue with people vigorously debating (or defending their stance). But I do have an issue with doing so via repeated, aggressive hypocrisy, to the point that they hijack threads.

Edit: Anyway, to get back on track, it’s obvious no one person can know whether or not everyone in a stadium (blue or red) is reacting to a goal being scored the same way they would have before the current iteration of VAR.

It’s all opinion unless we have a decently reliable survey of those fans for that moment (which we don’t) so let’s discuss the topic based on that understanding, rather than a false premise that we are debating from a position of “facts”.

 

[dronefromsector7G]

That is definitely a fair criticism. And one the poster I was replying to is guilty of quite often, as well. Which was partly why I responded in the way I did.

I have absolutely no issue with people vigorously debating (or defending their stance). But I do have an issue with doing so via repeated, aggressive hypocrisy, to the point that they hijack threads.

Edit: Anyway, to get back on track, it’s obvious no one person can know whether or not everyone in a stadium (blue or red) is reacting to a goal being scored the same way they would have before the current iteration of VAR.

It’s all opinion unless we have a decently reliable survey of those fans for that moment (which we don’t) so let’s discuss the topic based on that understanding, rather than a false premise that we are debating from a position of “facts”.

If you watch the celebrations in this video you don’t see many people who seem like they might be waiting on a VAR check.

*By posting this I am in no way saying I can read the minds of EVERY fan in the video

 

[SebastianBlue]

If you watch the celebrations in this video you don’t see many people who seem like they might be waiting on a VAR check.

*By posting this I am in no way saying I can read the minds of EVERY fan in the video

Yep, I would have gone mad, too, had I been there. And I did, here at home watching.

But I actually almost immediately turned to my missus and said “now to see if VAR can find some way to chalk it off”. The Foden goal against Liverpool had at once flooded in to my mind.

Now, I will freely admit I may not be representative of every fan (blue or otherwise), but I would wager a guess that there were at least a few in attendance on Saturday on both sides that had that in the back of their minds whilst reacting to the goal.

Whether that dampened the celebrations is down to each person (hence why I said we’d need a reliable survey of those in attendance).

It’s just my opinion that likely some may not have enjoyed the goal quite as much as they did prior to the current iteration of VAR, in the stadium or at home. But it is based on speaking with many fans of different clubs that have said they don’t celebrate quite the same way now.

Perhaps they are in the minority?

 

[BlueHammer85]

It is interesting when people say they don’t celebrate anymore when a goal goes in

Then you find crowds still go mental when a goal goes in and even again after a VAR check and it’s a goal (2 for the price of 1) unless it’s ruled out then it’s ‘fuck off VAR, your killing the game!’

 

[i kne albert davy]

Hard to see from the away end but Foden was away twice with what looked tight offside decisions both times flag instantly goes up before he had a chance to play the ball, over to Rashford who's clearly offside definitely moves towards the ball shock no flag until the ball is in the net.Don't really know why I'm surprised.

 

[bondsman]

It is interesting when people say they don’t celebrate anymore when a goal goes in

Then you find crowds still go mental when a goal goes in and even again after a VAR check and it’s a goal (2 for the price of 1) unless it’s ruled out then it’s ‘fuck off VAR, your killing the game!’

Weekend to weekend there’s an issue with VAR yet you continue to support it. Gallagher on VAR said today VAR couldn’t intervene in a decision he said was wrong. I ask you then if the fucking thing can’t be used to correct wrong decisions what’s it’s purpose?

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Weekend to weekend there’s an issue with VAR yet you continue to support it. Gallagher on VAR said today VAR couldn’t intervene in a decision he said was wrong. I ask you then if the fucking thing can’t be used to correct wrong decisions what’s it’s purpose?

Does anyone honestly think VAR wouldn't have overturned that decision in a heartbeat had it been given at the opposite end of the pitch?

 

[Fiftyyearsandcounting]

Read an article on some sport's website today which claimed using VAR for some FA Cup games but not for all, gave "An advantage to teams like Manchester City", (this was in reference to the handball in the Chelsea game).
Has no other PL team benefited from VAR in this competition?
Why just single out City
Surely not an advantage to us, more a disadvantage to lower league teams?

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Hard to see from the away end but Foden was away twice with what looked tight offside decisions both times flag instantly goes up before he had a chance to play the ball, over to Rashford who's clearly offside definitely moves towards the ball shock no flag until the ball is in the net.Don't really know why I'm surprised.

The first one, Foden was offside as much as Rashford was for the goal. The second one was a toenail at best.

 

[Stephen230]

Hard to see from the away end but Foden was away twice with what looked tight offside decisions both times flag instantly goes up before he had a chance to play the ball, over to Rashford who's clearly offside definitely moves towards the ball shock no flag until the ball is in the net.Don't really know why I'm surprised.

This is just muddying the waters. A delayed flag is for “When an immediate goal scoring opportunity is likely to occur.”

Neither of the two Foden offsides came remotely close to satisfying that criteria.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Weekend to weekend there’s an issue with VAR yet you continue to support it. Gallagher on VAR said today VAR couldn’t intervene in a decision he said was wrong. I ask you then if the fucking thing can’t be used to correct wrong decisions what’s it’s purpose?

Because it gets less wrong decisions than before and has a chance to constantly evolve and improve - that’s why.

Take away Var you honestly don’t think we’d have the same uproar about refs decisions, corruption etc ? Would be even more so now we know refs would have got the correct verdict had they had a second chance to look.

Scrap VAR for all I care , I’m not fussed, I don’t have a say.

I just know how bad officials and refs are without tech help and VAR exposes them on a weekly basis (I do take in account officials have a tough job, surrounded by cheating players and hostile crowds appealing everything)

 

[Stoned Rose]

Well the guy said with VAR “You can never truly celebrate a goal” I said on Saturday the whole end went mental when City scored. What point am I really missing?

Jesus.

 

[Bill the Blue]

Because it gets less wrong decisions than before and has a chance to constantly evolve and improve - that’s why.

Take away Var you honestly don’t think we’d have the same uproar about refs decisions, corruption etc ? Would be even more so now we know refs would have got the correct verdict had they had a second chance to look.

Scrap VAR for all I care , I’m not fussed, I don’t have a say.

I just know how bad officials and refs are without tech help and VAR exposes them on a weekly basis (I do take in account officials have a tough job, surrounded by cheating players and hostile crowds appealing everything)

Are you for real ?

"It gets less wrong decisions than before" really?

My team has just been on the end of one of the most blatant cheating refereeing decisions since VAR was implemented and you come on here saying it needs to be given more time to improve and evolve..

You just know "how bad officials and refs are without tech help" do you..?

Well they had all the tech help they required on Saturday at the swamp and managed to fcuk us over royally..

It's not all about City though, Wolves were fucked over at Anfield, not once but twice..

VAR needs to be given more time to evolve and improve does it ?

It's clearly not fit for purpose, has no accountability, no consistency in its decision making and is wide open to manipulation but it'll do for you..

Once again you have surpassed yourself in spouting complete bollocks on here..!

 

[bondsman]

Because it gets less wrong decisions than before and has a chance to constantly evolve and improve - that’s why.

Take away Var you honestly don’t think we’d have the same uproar about refs decisions, corruption etc ? Would be even more so now we know refs would have got the correct verdict had they had a second chance to look.

Scrap VAR for all I care , I’m not fussed, I don’t have a say.

I just know how bad officials and refs are without tech help and VAR exposes them on a weekly basis (I do take in account officials have a tough job, surrounded by cheating players and hostile crowds appealing everything)

VAR has led to incessant rule changes to try to make the tech work that’s only made the game worse and officiating worse. You continually concede that VAR doesn’t work yet say it’s improved things. That’s just contrary.

 

[Kmezn]

I love the concept of VAR. Correct mistakes in refereeing.

It's obviously a work-in-progress... but VAR is slowly making the game better - by eliminating human judgement/mistakes. How might this improve radically in the near future - AI. AI could make initial calls - and then humans might intervene for a final say-so. Eventually AI will become better - by far - and make almost no mistakes - on calls. And it will be instantaneous and without unnecessary delay. This coming to you within the next 10 years.

Unfortunately I have to disagree. Not with the principle that sounds great. But ai is only as good as the data you train it with.

Let's say that for the sake of the example that United and Liverpool have an unconscious bias in their favour (legacy, managers who play the system corruption is not relevent) an ai trained with data (not subjective info outside the game) has to draw it's own conclusions about the rules.
What's the common factor between the teams?
They're in the North of England?
They share a city with another team?
They play in red?
Ai not made with care could start favouring teams playing in red that share a city, congratulations arsenal you now get the benefit of the doubt.
Or maybe us when playing away in a black and red kit...
I'm exaggerating for effect but most software is written to a deadline or lowest cost basis. And for example the company (pigmob) who don't care enough about teams or fans to open up communication about how they get to their moon logic decisions (live mic open reviews of games etc) are not going to care enough to train an ai properly .

their constant changing of the lotg rather than fixing the main problem being their implementation of them being inconsistent game to game ref to ref minute to minute...

Thanks for coming to me ted talk.

 

[waspish]

Are you for real ?

"It gets less wrong decisions than before" really?

My team has just been on the end of one of the most blatant cheating refereeing decisions since VAR was implemented and you come on here saying it needs to be given more time to improve and evolve..

You just know "how bad officials and refs are without tech help" do you..?

Well they had all the tech help they required on Saturday at the swamp and managed to fcuk us over royally..

It's not all about City though, Wolves were fucked over at Anfield, not once but twice..

VAR needs to be given more time to evolve and improve does it ?

It's clearly not fit for purpose, has no accountability, no consistency in its decision making and is wide open to manipulation but it'll do for you..

Once again you have surpassed yourself in spouting complete bollocks on here..!

It’s not var that’s the problem it’s the cheats who are running it

 

[Bill the Blue]

It’s not var that’s the problem it’s the cheats who are running it

Maybe they're not cheats, maybe they are just following orders..

Who and what is a Match Commander and what influence does this person have when VAR is called upon ?

Maybe VAR is actually doing the job it was brought in to do after all.

Until VAR gets opened up to scrutiny and transparency and the people who are making the decisions are made to explain how and why they have arrived at the said decisions then this will always be the major issue.

There is no trust and as with everything in life, if there's no trust, you're fcuked..

And we were well fcuked over on Saturday..!

 

[BlueHammer85]

Are you for real ?

Yes.

"It gets less wrong decisions than before" really?

Yes, that is a statistical fact

My team has just been on the end of one of the most blatant cheating refereeing decisions since VAR was implemented and you come on here saying it needs to be given more time to improve and evolve..

Yes, unfortunately we'll never have a system in place that will 100% get every decision correct and please everyone. We do have a system in place that allows a ref a second look, that can spot clear and obvious decisions the refs would have missed otherwise. Will always have big controversial moments when the ref and VAR both get it completely wrong - it shouldn't happen, it's frustrating, but it always will.

With just a ref and couple of lino's then the increase of wrong/farcical decisions is on a much higher scale

You just know "how bad officials and refs are without tech help" do you..?

Yes, I've witnessed football pre and with VAR, without tech help some games were farcical and the decisions ridiculous

check this pre VAR match out that someone posted a couple weeks ago and tell me you were happier ? it was like this for a lot of games back then.



also, I would like to clarify 'bad' - for some games, refs are under severe pressure from players, fans etc. and they have to deal with cheating/diving, fractional split second decisions - It was becoming pretty impossible for refs hence the need for tech help.

Well they had all the tech help they required on Saturday at the swamp and managed to fcuk us over royally..

They really did, completely farcical - was clearly offside and interfering

the dickhead ref was swayed by players reaction saying Rashford wasn't interfering and overruled the Lino and didn't go to VAR either - completely infuriating even for a neutral

also on the same day, Brentford getting that penalty awarded when it was Toney grabbing hold of the defender - the ref got completely played and again didn't go to VAR - there's no agenda/conspiracy here - it's just bad officiating even with VAR right there for him to have a look

It's not all about City though, Wolves were fucked over at Anfield, not once but twice..

Agreed they was, not having correct cameras in place - which also happened AGAINST Liverpool earlier the season at Arsenal is something they have to get right.

It proves why we need VAR as the Linos left on thereselves get it wrong

West Ham have had a few really bad ref/VAR go against us also

But it has really helped correct injustice calls which many forget -

Cresswell having a ball smash in his face was awarded a penalty by the ref (VAR overturned)
Likewise Bowen getting completly wiped out and the ref gave a goal kick (VAR overturned)

It's decisions like these which don't get a mention where it's hard to argue against VAR

VAR needs to be given more time to evolve and improve does it ?

Yes personally for me.

It's perfectly fine for others to have a different view (something you should learn)

Once again you have surpassed yourself in spouting complete bollocks on here..!

Whatever I say will be met by a few permanently and desperately wanting to be outraged on a forum - I even agreed how bad that offside decision was and was still quoted by a few thinking I was saying it was the correct decision - also the recent poll that 44% on here think VAR was 'SOLELY' set up to benefit Man Utd and Liverpool is just hilarious

So once again, I bow out, there is little point trying to have a rational debate with the likes of you that just want to scream and shout corruption and get abusive. It's a waste of time.

You can tag me in the next 'controversial' incident that WILL happen. I wont bother responding on here.

Have a good one.