Religion

[Mancini Manus Domini]

So two goals in added time to win the title from our hated rivals, a miracle just for you, and yet you still don't believe. Unbelievable!

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

don't they have dry places in Scotland

They did when I was at uni up there and one of our favourite capers was to descend mob-handed (100+) on a village pub in the middle of nowhere and drink it dry.

They also had this weird rule that pubs couldn't open on Sundays but hotel bars could, after 7pm. The Queens Hotel in Dundee used to be hammered on a Sunday night.

 

[BimboBob]

This is true.

Jesus did exist and was crucified and lived most of his life in Judea and had disciples (probably because he was thought to be wise and non-violent), but the other 99% of stuff written about him is bollocks. A lot of stuff was omitted by the Catholic Church because it had stuff about dragons and was even more ridiculous than the stuff that got through.

There's no historical source for Jesus ever existing let alone being crucified. Or indeed living in Judea. The story about a man being born, sorts out a few miracles, dies, is reborn only to die again is a story that has been told way before he was ever thought of in loads of different cultures from around the globe. The fact that he is well known is down to Rome trying to save an empire and not the actual truth.

 

[Henkeman]

There's no historical source for Jesus ever existing let alone being crucified. Or indeed living in Judea. The story about a man being born, sorts out a few miracles, dies, is reborn only to die again is a story that has been told way before he was ever thought of in loads of different cultures from around the globe. The fact that he is well known is down to Rome trying to save an empire and not the actual truth.

That simply isn't true - see posts above. There are better sources for his life than most others of the same era - you could even call them remarkably and unusually good compared to what might be expected.

This does not for a second affirm a religious belief today though.

 

[urban genie]

We all know it's aliens

 

[BimboBob]

That simply isn't true - see posts above. There are better sources for his life than most others of the same era - you could even call them remarkably and unusually good compared to what might be expected.

This does not for a second affirm a religious belief today though.

Where? Show me sources. Don't say the bible either. Show me sources where his name is mentioned by people actually, physically there and written down at the time.

 

[urban genie]

There's no historical source for Jesus ever existing let alone being crucified. Or indeed living in Judea. The story about a man being born, sorts out a few miracles, dies, is reborn only to die again is a story that has been told way before he was ever thought of in loads of different cultures from around the globe. The fact that he is well known is down to Rome trying to save an empire and not the actual truth.

Jesus existed, whether he was heaven sent is another matten, tbf the immaculate conception has very strong similarities to the dream Maha Maya has before concevieving Siddhartha Gautama.
Then you have the birth of Issac who was also amiracle birth, so it is easy to see how people would use such to enhance the story of Jesus.


You ask for sources

The writings of the 1st century Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus include references to Jesus and the origins of Christianity. Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 CE, includes two references to Jesus in Books 18 and 20.

The Roman historian and senator Tacitusreferred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (c. CE 116), book 15, chapter 44.

He was a real person, but was probably more an activist against the corruptuon of the state than the son of god

 

[inbetween]

That simply isn't true - see posts above. There are better sources for his life than most others of the same era - you could even call them remarkably and unusually good compared to what might be expected.

This does not for a second affirm a religious belief today though.

Most if not all of the stories are based on anecdotal evidence from the time and whether he existed or not is as relevant as whether any of us existed.

The stuff he was claimed to do is impossible and is described in a book which mentions the Earth being created immediately followed by humans when we all know this isn't true. Humans have been around for around 0.0001% of the Earth's entire history, something the Bible misses out on. Humans are just one species of billions that have existed.

A lot of the stuff written about him is untrue because it is impossible, it was a story that quite frankly got out of hand just like all the others.

The faster religion is outlawed and put to history the quicker we can get on with being humans who do things based upon fact and the things we can see and prove.

 

[Henkeman]

Where? Show me sources. Don't say the bible either. Show me sources where his name is mentioned by people actually, physically there and written down at the time.

Why would the Bible be a worse source for Jesus's than, say, Josephus for the life of Vespasian, who commissioned him? It's no different.

As stated, John is probably (not certainly, but then it's not certain Cassius Dio existed for that matter) an eyewitness. That counts as primary evidence, which is a lot more than is the case for an awful lot of historical figures of the time. Yet they are accepted.

Don't take my word for it. Take the word of classical historians, who largely accept this. I gave one reference book above, try that for starters. I'm an atheist, I'm not remotely talking about the religious side. But rejecting all and every piece of evidence for existence because you don't want to believe is just being contrary.

 

[Henkeman]

Most if not all of the stories are based on anecdotal evidence from the time and whether he existed or not is as relevant as whether any of us existed.

The stuff he was claimed to do is impossible and is described in a book which mentions the Earth being created immediately followed by humans when we all know this isn't true. Humans have been around for around 0.0001% of the Earth's entire history, something the Bible misses out on. Humans are just one species of billions that have existed.

A lot of the stuff written about him is untrue because it is impossible, it was a story that quite frankly got out of hand just like all the others.

The faster religion is outlawed and put to history the quicker we can get on with being humans who do things based upon fact and the things we can see and prove.

You are under the peculiar impression I'm talking about belief.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

There's no historical source for Jesus ever existing let alone being crucified. Or indeed living in Judea. The story about a man being born, sorts out a few miracles, dies, is reborn only to die again is a story that has been told way before he was ever thought of in loads of different cultures from around the globe. The fact that he is well known is down to Rome trying to save an empire and not the actual truth.

There are historical sources from the same time for many people called Jesus but not the biblical one.

Josephus, the first century Jewish historian mentions no fewer than nineteen different Yeshuas/Jesii, none were the Jesus of Nazareth who was written about in later years.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Most 'god botherers' would be quite tolerant of other people's views and personal beliefs. Some people are very quick to criticise, yet they themselves display a level of prejudice and intolerance.

This is nonsense.

You cannot be a good Christian if you do not try to convert others. A Christian dirty is to be an evangelist.

That is the trouble with it.

If it wasn’t for evangelism, and they’d mind their own business I’d have no problem with them.

 

[york away to this!]

Why, when I look at this thread, do I get an ad for the messianic prophecy bible project? He is watching us all, of that there is no doubt...

 

[BimboBob]

Jesus existed, whether he was heaven sent is another matten, tbf the immaculate conception has very strong similarities to the dream Maha Maya has before concevieving Siddhartha Gautama.
Then you have the birth of Issac who was also amiracle birth, so it is easy to see how people would use such to enhance the story of Jesus.


You ask for sources

The writings of the 1st century Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus include references to Jesus and the origins of Christianity. Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 CE, includes two references to Jesus in Books 18 and 20.

The Roman historian and senator Tacitusreferred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (c. CE 116), book 15, chapter 44.

He was a real person, but was probably more an activist against the corruptuon of the state than the son of god

The same Josephus who wrote about Adam and Eve as an historical event? That Josephus? Who wrote his book around 93-94 CE...i.e 60 odd years after the death of Jesus? The same goes for Tacitus. Written over 100 years after he was supposedly born. Don't get me wrong, the two examples you have provided have been argued about for generations by far more learned scholars than you and I but they weren't written at the time but many years after. From other sources.

I asked for a reference written at the time, placing Jesus. There isn't one.

 

[Fame Monster]

There's no historical source for Jesus ever existing let alone being crucified. Or indeed living in Judea. The story about a man being born, sorts out a few miracles, dies, is reborn only to die again is a story that has been told way before he was ever thought of in loads of different cultures from around the globe. The fact that he is well known is down to Rome trying to save an empire and not the actual truth.

There are lots of historical sources. You’re right that the written sources that survive today were written after his death but many of those written sources emanate from recollections and stories that were told by his contemporaries but not written down which was not unusual for 99% of societies 2000 years ago. I suppose no-one can say whether he did or didn’t exist unless there’s a 2062 year old man called Judas walking about but if you apply the same burden of proof to other historical figures (and many have a lot less evidence than Jesus) then lots of figures disappear.

 

[Magicpole]

There are lots of historical sources. You’re right that the written sources that survive today were written after his death but many of those written sources emanate from recollections and stories that were told by his contemporaries but not written down which was not unusual for 99% of societies 2000 years ago. I suppose no-one can say whether he did or didn’t exist unless there’s a 2062 year old man called Judas walking about but if you apply the same burden of proof to other historical figures (and many have a lot less evidence than Jesus) then lots of figures disappear.

Why did the Roman Empire not mention him? They did with every other perceived threat to their rule. And acted accordingly in a brutal fashion to put it down.

Let’s look at the supposed scenario.

The Jews had been waiting for a Messiah. Their Messiah was not a hippy love everybody, including your slavery master. Theirs was one that weilded a sword and would vanquish their enemies and deliver them from bondage.

Jesus turns up, and if we are to believe the Bible, was having gatherings of thousands of people. The loaves and the fishes, where he fed five thousand. He entered Bethlehem on a donkey to show humility with thousands of people laying palm leaves before him.

Now, where the Roman soldiers in control of Bethlehem straight out of Life if Brian? Did nobody ask, who is this ****? Thousands of people are turning out for this self proclaimed Messiah. The Messiah according to Judaism, would smite the Romans and nobody thought, maybe we should report this back to Rome. Where the Senate would decide, as they had done countless times, to sort it out.

Not one mention in any Roman document of him. A guy who could attract thousands of people fed up with Roman rule and whose own writings foretold a warrior?

They just let it go. Never bothered their arse? Really? The Roman Empire sustained through fear and power?

The reason there is no record of a threat or action to qwell that is simple. It never happened. Any leader who could attract the numbers the Bible claims Jesus attracted, would have been seen as a potential threat and dealt with accordingly.

Al the accounts of him where nearly 70 years after he was supposed to have lived, through people who weren’t there.

The Romans took any threat seriously, read up on their response to threats across their empire. But, not a peep. Not one sentence about a Jewish guy who claimed to be the Messiah and could turn out the equivelant of five legions to listen to him?

There isn’t a mention because it didn’t happen. Rome lasted centuries on the basis of control and subjugation of threat.

A guy who is supposed to be a sword wielding freedom fighter never raised an eyebrow?

If anybody believes that happened, I have five magic beans going at a competitive price.

 

[Adidas Sharston]

Always enjoyed Hitchens debates on religion.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Every made up pile of Bronze Age shit holy book is bursting at the seams with intolerance, genocide and promotion and endorsement of human slavery. Each sect has its own interpretation and all are intolerant of others who don’t see it their way.

They all are a cancer on any society that wants tolerance. Every single one. I always quote the absolute horrors contained within their books to any of them who start to pull the, that offends my beliefs card.

Everybody should. They think they should get a bye because of their delusions. They shouldn’t. Each book is a litany of hâte for those not of their sect. Even Jeezy Peezy endorses slavery. Told us to love him and he would love us back. But if we didn’t, then we would burn in hell for eternity.

Imagine you had a daughter and she came home and told you her new boyfriend loved her that much, that if she stopped loving him, he would burn her alive? That’s Jesus and he’s supposed to be the good guy.

Don’t give these bastards an inch. Don’t let their mental illness intrude on your life and take every opportunity to expose the hate and intolerance in every holy book ever written.

Then tell them to fuck off and keep it to themselves. A few doozies from the bible that’s show what an abomination of a book it is.

Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:


You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20


Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10


Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16


Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7


Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13


Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20


Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11


Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

Their god is a psychopath, tell them that and watch their deluded faces picture you burning in hell.

They might think they are moral people. Following any of the books clearly contradicts any morality I want to see.

For it is written.

This needs framing

 

[mac]

I also like that Jesus actually seemed to have anger issues, so much so when a fig tree didn't have figs on it outside of fig season, he cursed it:

Mark 11:12-14 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again". And his disciples heard him say it.

The man was a fucking loon.

of course not only is Jesus a loon but every fucker I mean The guys looking for figs on the 11-12-14 well I eat figs from August onwardsand no where have u seen a 14 month yr... fucking loons if you believe in religion.

 

[I'm no cynic but...]

Mods, If this is too much for you to handle, no worries, delete away.

I was in the pub earlier and a friend of mine hobbled up to the bar with his leg in a cast, asked for a beer and a shot but it had to be down low as his brother in law and family were there and were 'very religious' and could never handle seeing him drink alcohol. This guy is a doctor and has two children with the guy's sister, yet still fears upsetting this pious **** sat outside because he's very religious.
I personally would have taken great pleasure in sitting in front of him in a licensed restaurant and made him suck it up and realise that his shitty view of the world doesn't effect me or anyone else other than him.

There, off my chest

Presumably the 'very religious' ones you talk of are Christians in which case they should reflect in the belief that their saviour did himself drink wine. Personally, I too have drank wine and have performed a reverse miracle by turning it into water [sort of].