Hmmmm, "not particularly bitter", LOL.
Don't know why people are arguing about this. 54% of this forum are voting out, I imagine that the British public will be of a similar if not greater % of outers.
I'm voting out, we will be fine as we always have been if we are out.
How is that circular reasoning?(I think you have the definition mixed up) This person knows more about that particular situation than any of you so I'd take their word on it, simple as that they are all dead against voting out.
So you would cast your vote because you believe that somebody that has a vested interest in remaining in the EU is talking objectively?
As has been pointed out to you already on this thread you will have to do your own research and try to ignore the propaganda machine that wants you to be scared enough not to use your own brains.
For me the problem lies with the Common Agricultural Policy. This was the single reason we entered the Common Market in the first place and while Ted Heath seemed to think it made sense to force us into it the whole thing has now undergone massive mission creep and is affecting us in ways never originally intended.
Somebody mentioned in their reply to you that we get less back than we pay out and that a lot of that money ends up in the hands of the rich. I suggest you research the Common Agricultural Policy for evidence of that. We pay in something like 4.5 billion and take around 2.5 billion in return. Agricultural subsidies are based on land acreage so a large land owner will get more than a small land owner or a tenant farmer. Now the Duke of Westminster is probably the richest bloke in this country and he's also a massive land owner as is our own Queen and the Church. They don't need EU handouts but they get them anyway, all paid for by you and me through taxes. Now multiply that problem across the 27 other member states who also have their stinking rich land owners and you can see that the EU is propping up a rich man's club at the expense of the ordinary working man.
Farmers represent 5.4 percent of the EU’s population. They generate a mere 1.6 percent of the Union’s GDP. Yet they receive 47 percent of the EU’s total budget through CAP handouts. Europe’s taxpayers hand over €58 billion in subsidies to this minority.
You would have thought that most farmers would be all for the EU as they are the group that most benefit from it arn't they? I was surprised to read that in the farmers forum they are voting in their poll to leave by about two thirds of the vote. Why do you think that would be? Simple because of land mass.
The area of productive agricultural land in this country is dwarfed by the land available to France and Spain. We are at the bottom of the pile when it comes to agricultural production simple because we don't have the land mass. And Farmers are getting p*ssed off by the fact that the French (in particular) get a huge slice of the subsidies cake and they have to compete against them and everybody else on an unlevel playing field.
It's one of the reasons the French will NEVER leave the EU because they are the main beneficiaries from it.
I suggest you ignore the views of your friends that have a vested interest and do some reading of your own.
Pension funds own more arable land than the Dukes of Westminster(won't get much from the EU, most is in London, can't grow much wheat on pavement), Baccleugh (biggest UK landowner) and the Royal family put together. I hope you're secure in your retirement.
LOL let me get this straight like him you've failed to state any sources whatsoever, instead putting the onus on me to find them to support your arguments and figures whilst claiming propaganda to something that has cited credible sources quite clearly? Reluctance to do that when asked is not confidence inspiring.
Also I picked out that one thing just as an example of assumed knowledge in the pro out camp on something they clearly don't know the in's and outs of(no pun) because I happen to know someone who does... it was never crux of my argument(was just saying some things may well be lost once the funding goes) it's just made me question whether some of you are eating up ill informed nonsense and propaganda yourselves(which is why I'd maybe like to see your sources so I can judge for myself). Nothing will change for the worse and we'll lose nothing is not a pill I'm about to swallow so easily(in fact I call bullshit on that) because I actually do think for myself in fact I'd just like to hear from both sides in a concise manner with all the fluff and fairy-tail bollocks taken out... I'm not one to close my ears as soon as I hear something contrary to what I've been lead to believe or want to believe, in fact that's what I've been picking up on from others that bothers me.
As I've said I've not really chosen a side personally after thinking about it some more, I'd like to know how some are so confident on their choice or whether it's just the case that they don't like being in Europe and that's that which is fair enough.
Quit the EU to SAVE our NHS: Top cancer doctor says migrants are bleeding it dry
BRITAIN should leave the EU in order to save an NHS which is being overrun by migrants, according to a top cancer specialist.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...ip-damage-cancer-research-collapse-NHS-health
Britain's NHS can't survive staying in the European Union
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...nt-survive-staying-in-the-European-Union.html
Far to much of this a-la the above on how rich people get handouts due to shit policy.
I have found that people i speak to reflect here to an extent but i would say 70-30 are strongly in favour of leaving.
You think that the ranting Daily Mail reading middle-aged white men that make up most of this forum are representative of the electorate?
As for the 'people I speak to' argument. See above.
Reading the forum is all the evidence I need. I'd also check the polls, which are not reflected here.Can you substantiate that please? I guarantee that most left wingers will think the forum right wing and most right wingers will think the forum left wing.
That's not even touching on the fact that there are elements of both left and right that wasn't to leave the EU and elements of both that want to stay.
Quitting the EU 'would help our security', former MI6 chief suggests
Sir Richard Dearlove said that Britain’s borders could be strengthened in the event of a Brexit and extremists could be more easily deported, moves which he said were “security gains” with little apparent downside.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...5/bexit-brussels-attacks-eu-mi6-security.html
Let's face it. Remaining or leaving has its pros and cons - I'm not going to vote because of this.
Quitting the EU 'would help our security', former MI6 chief suggests
Sir Richard Dearlove said that Britain’s borders could be strengthened in the event of a Brexit and extremists could be more easily deported, moves which he said were “security gains” with little apparent downside.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...5/bexit-brussels-attacks-eu-mi6-security.html
Seems overwhelming evidence in support of quitting has more pros than cons.
Seems overwhelming evidence in support of quitting has more pros than cons.
We can survive on our own. And can do deals with people who offer equal value in return.
Can you substantiate that please? I guarantee that most left wingers will think the forum right wing and most right wingers will think the forum left wing.
That's not even touching on the fact that there are elements of both left and right that wasn't to leave the EU and elements of both that want to stay.