The Labour Government

WestGorton said:
Blair and Brown gave hope. I worked in town and within a couple of years the homeless people (not as many as now) slowly disappeared due to their policy. No government is going to be universally liked and not make errors but in my lifetime they were the pick of the bunch. Any British government will back the USA as we would have been speaking German without them. Unfortunately 9/11 happened and thus Iraq and Afghanistan. Too early to judge at present but time will be the reveal. Just my take and I am no prof.
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Iraq happened because a pair of warmongers made up shit about WMD to justify their actions … They should both be behind bars but that’s another story…
 
Interesting comments from Andy Haldane tonight, arguing that Reeves’ spiel about the fiscal black hole was unhelpful and unnecessary, hitting confidence around the economy.

Quite damning and surprisingly critical as well given how left wing he is.
 
Brewster's millions said:
Interesting comments from Andy Haldane tonight, arguing that Reeves’ spiel about the fiscal black hole was unhelpful and unnecessary, hitting confidence around the economy.

Quite damning and surprisingly critical as well given how left wing he is.
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It's good to be honest though, because sticking plasters, populist slogans and sheer hard faced "network connecting" robbery (ppe) never helped anyone.
 
metalblue said:
And resistance to change is often why it is like it. Yours is not a unique experience. It’s all well and good saying work smarter but quite another to make them do so.
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That’s why I believe the nhs should be decoupled from the DoH and held to account via an agreed business plan. It puts the onus to change on the nhs.
 
Bluemanc100 said:
Iraq happened because a pair of warmongers made up shit about WMD to justify their actions … They should both be behind bars but that’s another story…
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6 inquiries have blamed the intelligence agencies of the USA and the UK informing the respective governments of false intelligence. Life is more strange than fiction in my opinion. Not everyone in the CIA and MI whatever may be competent or well informed.
 
WestGorton said:
6 inquiries have blamed the intelligence agencies of the USA and the UK informing the respective governments of false intelligence. Life is more strange than fiction in my opinion. Not everyone in the CIA and MI whatever may be competent or well informed.
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However Irag etc was a disaster I agree.
 
mackenzie said:
It's good to be honest though, because sticking plasters, populist slogans and sheer hard faced "network connecting" robbery (ppe) never helped anyone.
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I would agree with you in principle, but unfortunately I can’t look past the facts that (a) the £22bn figure is a work of fiction, constructed for political purposes, (b) a large if not majority share of the identified overspend is due to Labour’s own decisions on public sector pay and (c) the likelihood of real terms cuts in non-protected departmental spending was well signalled by the OBR months ahead of the election.

I’m afraid that Labour have been thoroughly dishonest on this matter, even to the point of manufacturing speculation of a loss of confidence in the gilt market had the WFA (and other areas of spending) not been removed. Which, on any measure, is simply not true.
 
Brewster's millions said:
I would agree with you in principle, but unfortunately I can’t look past the facts that (a) the £22bn figure is a work of fiction, constructed for political purposes, (b) a large if not majority share of the identified overspend is due to Labour’s own decisions on public sector pay and (c) the likelihood of real terms cuts in non-protected departmental spending was well signalled by the OBR months ahead of the election.

I’m afraid that Labour have been thoroughly dishonest on this matter, even to the point of manufacturing speculation of a loss of confidence in the gilt market had the WFA (and other areas of spending) not been removed. Which, on any measure, is simply not true.
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Plenty of politicians/parties are "dishonest" to some extent. Unfortunately.
I think the real crux of the matter is what they do in the long run to get where they want the country to be. If that place is rubbish then of course they should feel the full force of a backlash. If it's "better" at the end of that term then we should acknowledge it.

I'm a floating voter. I have no real "skin" in this, but I do feel we shouldn't measure 14 years of Tory government against 3 months of Labour
 
mackenzie said:
Plenty of politicians/parties are "dishonest" to some extent. Unfortunately.
I think the real crux of the matter is what they do in the long run to get where they want the country to be. If that place is rubbish then of course they should feel the full force of a backlash. If it's "better" at the end of that term then we should acknowledge it.

I'm a floating voter. I have no real "skin" in this, but I do feel we shouldn't measure 14 years of Tory government against 3 months of Labour
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I do appreciate that you are one of the more considered and less partisan posters on here, and I don’t necessarily disagree with you on judging over a reasonable period of time, but it does amaze me how poorly Labour have handled this.

Both in terms of the unnecessary own goal of removing the WFA with seemingly little to no preparation on dealing with the backlash it would inevitably create, and also the naivety on show with their narrative around this fiscal black hole. Given that they’ve known they would be in power for a long time now, and had ample time to prepare, it does raise questions.
 
Brewster's millions said:
I do appreciate that you are one of the more considered and less partisan posters on here, and I don’t necessarily disagree with you on judging over a reasonable period of time, but it does amaze me how poorly Labour have handled this.

Both in terms of the unnecessary own goal of removing the WFA with seemingly little to no preparation on dealing with the backlash it would inevitably create, and also the naivety on show with their narrative around this fiscal black hole. Given that they’ve known they would be in power for a long time now, and had ample time to prepare, it does raise questions.
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And I agree...it does
 
kaz7 said:
The staff are working their arses off , is he telling nurses and doctors that they should work harder ffs
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no, my understanding of the produtivity issue lies mainly around the lack of upto date technology within the system forcing staff to be less productive than they otherwise would/could be.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Of course the 10 years before COVID were all plain sailing. Nothing at all to do with the country being flat broke when they took over. Nothing at all. Brown handed over an economy absolutely thriving and those naughty Tory rascals spoiled everything.

How silly of the voters to not see that and keep re-electing them.
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Does GFC mean anything at all to you?
 
Postman Pep said:
Surely not he said "it's a matter of absolute principle" ....

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I’m behind the thread again shocked to hear Starmer say that, politicians of all colours from the time of Thatcher talk about the private health sector . It will never revert back to the way it was intended to run as the NHS it’s just a brand name for a second rate system.
 
KS55 said:
That’s why I believe the nhs should be decoupled from the DoH and held to account via an agreed business plan. It puts the onus to change on the nhs.
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Where have you been? Amanda Pritchard runs the NHS and is given her orders from the department by way of the regularly published Mandates
 
Chippy_boy said:
I appreciate your measured post, seriously. You are one of the very few posters on here who has the decency to admit when you are wrong about something, I respect you for that.

If I may, I'd like to add my perspective to your post above.

(a) Agreed, I have absolutely no issue with removing WFA from more wealthy pensioners. Personally, I think it's a bit petty doing so, and not worth the hassle. I don't think giving anyone £300 back after they'd paid taxes and NI for 40 years is a dreadful thing, but if the government wants to remove it, no big deal.

(b) Also agreed. I am not sure it is being dealt with though, which is why I am so concerned about the removal of WFA.

(c) Not agreed. Energy costs are down this winter by around £100 per household. However last year every household got a £300 subsidy from the government, so in fact every household is £200 worse of this winter, compared to last. That's BEFORE Labour take away the £300 for pensioners, which then makes them £500 worse off. And I wonder about your maths. if the WFA is £300, have pensions gone up £3,000 per person in 2 years? Genuinely I don't know. Staggering if true. I am not aware of any falling food prices. Inflation has fallen, which just means prices are going up more slowly. But I have not seen any negative inflation. Certainly not overall, although maybe the odd thing here or there is cheaper. Food prices as a whole are still rising.

(d) I don't think anyone is gleeful about it. I am pleased Labour are making fuck ups all over the place (IMO) but I am genuinely disgusted at the removal of WFA for people on £12k per year or less. It's indefensible. What's even more annoying is their constant lying about it. Lying that they had no choice. What utter rubbish. OF COURSE they had a choice. Please stop lying. We are not fools.

(e) I don't lay all those issues at the Tories door. Inflation went up globally to similar levels. The INDEPENDENT bank of england was responsible for keeping it low and failed. I am not in favour of an independent BoE myself, and notably, Labour established its independence. Anyway, no-one dies from missing a bus service, but thousands of elderly every year die of the cold. In the latest figures i have seen there were 13,400 excess deaths in winter in 20/21, and that was the 2nd lowest number in 70 years! Of course, not all "died of cold" but they did die from complications relating to it. The 13,400 number is the excess deaths compared to summer months, so it is statistically inescapable the thousands of people die from the lower temperatures. Of course this does not include the ENORMOUS cost to the NHS of the elderly getting flu or pneumonia and then being bed-blockers in hospital for weeks or even months.
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Thanks for that. In the same spirit:

(c) Every household? Low-income households got help, and if you got the winter fuel payment you also got a "one-off" cost of living payment (£150 to £300, depending on age). [At least, that's my understanding - all quite complicated.] Now the Tories might have been able to afford another one-off payment this winter if they hadn't given people an unaffordable 4% off NI contributions. But pensions have gone up £1900 in two years so, as I said, nearly ten times the basic (£200) WFP. (I rounded up.)
In August, “Food inflation eased, with fresh food prices, especially fruit, meat and fish, seeing the biggest monthly decrease since December 2020 as supplier input costs lessened.” [British Retail Consortium] But all food was still 2% up on previous August, so that makes us both right.

(e) As you say, winter excess deaths don't mean all "died of cold". And it certainly doesn't mean 13,400 (let alone 2 million) will die because they can't afford to heat their homes. I don't think this research covers whether you're more likely to die from being cold in your home or from getting out and about and catching flu (or slipping and breaking your hip), but it does challenge the value of the stats.
https://journals.lww.com/epidem/fulltext/2016/07000/the_excess_winter_deaths_measure__why_its_use_is.6.aspx#:~:text=Many parts of the world,key role, particularly ambient temperature.
 
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